It's just this kind of personal integrity, pride in service, and professionalism, embodied here by our dear Webmaster, that makes me certain that I want to become an officer. If you look around these forums, you'll encounter a large number of seasoned aviators who regularly share their wisdom and experience to aid and guide the wannabes and the newbies. If that doesn't make you feel good about the Navy, nothing will.
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military "culture"
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quickandsure
Registered User
Well said. Good job Webmaster. Enough has been said but will add some emotion.
There is no better calling in life than to wear the Blue and Gold, worn by a long line of true heros. Wings of Gold are pinned to the Blue and Gold uniform, not the other way around. You will become a Naval Officer first and foremost. If in your heart of hearts think differently, you should not be considering an impersonation.
I too spent some time in Japan, 1957 involved in volunteer work painting and repair of schools and etc, involving for the most part children. Second time in early 1960's volunteered and taught English to a group of medical students, two of which are still close friends.
Roppongi is not your center of culture in Japan. It is the modern day version of what Yoshiwara was in days gone by. I would say that most that are there are not motivated by any higher calling.
Sure sailors sometimes drink too much and do not appear good citizens. At other times they will volunteer to do great things, both on the boat and off. Not to defend nor condone, just human species.
Lunar; pat Hachiko on the head for me.
MCPO USN (ret)
There is no better calling in life than to wear the Blue and Gold, worn by a long line of true heros. Wings of Gold are pinned to the Blue and Gold uniform, not the other way around. You will become a Naval Officer first and foremost. If in your heart of hearts think differently, you should not be considering an impersonation.
I too spent some time in Japan, 1957 involved in volunteer work painting and repair of schools and etc, involving for the most part children. Second time in early 1960's volunteered and taught English to a group of medical students, two of which are still close friends.
Roppongi is not your center of culture in Japan. It is the modern day version of what Yoshiwara was in days gone by. I would say that most that are there are not motivated by any higher calling.
Sure sailors sometimes drink too much and do not appear good citizens. At other times they will volunteer to do great things, both on the boat and off. Not to defend nor condone, just human species.
Lunar; pat Hachiko on the head for me.
MCPO USN (ret)
Webmaster (you're so tactical, man) pretty much covered the major points, but I just wanted to reinforce why people do put up w/ a lot of the "negative" things that have been mentioned. The service is definately not for everyone, and that's perfectly okay. But those guys you see out there who appear to be the "ugly american" (and sometimes are), are also the guys who turn wrenches for you, who work 12+ hours for you, and even give up sleep to work more than there shift for you, all so you can go fly and be the pornstar.
What makes those 6+ month deploymnets (or 9+ for some of my friends...poor bastards) bearable, or the fact that you can only wear shorts on the second Tuesday of every other month (or some other inane rule that may exist) is the people. The day is just a little better when you're able to go out to the flight deck and just shoot the **** w/ your maintainers (or whoever works for you), or when you're at a bar, and all of a sudden a bunch of shots show up because your guys have bought you a round because they want to. And it really doesn't matter whether you or them are liberal, conservative, or think it tastes great/less filling, or whatever.
During cruise, I lived w/ an atheist independent who had some liberal views when compared to the military norm and was against us going to Iraq. Personally, I'm probably more "liberal" than the military norm, and certainly wasn't excited about us going to Iraq. But if ordered, I'd do what was asked. And, IMO, the whole political leanings is really just a huge waste of time, and seems to be important only to people who think others care about their opinion.
Anyway, like others have said, if you have doubts, than just don't go that route. That state dept. option seemed like a good idea to persue. But if you do want to join, then go for it. Only you know what you want.
What makes those 6+ month deploymnets (or 9+ for some of my friends...poor bastards) bearable, or the fact that you can only wear shorts on the second Tuesday of every other month (or some other inane rule that may exist) is the people. The day is just a little better when you're able to go out to the flight deck and just shoot the **** w/ your maintainers (or whoever works for you), or when you're at a bar, and all of a sudden a bunch of shots show up because your guys have bought you a round because they want to. And it really doesn't matter whether you or them are liberal, conservative, or think it tastes great/less filling, or whatever.
During cruise, I lived w/ an atheist independent who had some liberal views when compared to the military norm and was against us going to Iraq. Personally, I'm probably more "liberal" than the military norm, and certainly wasn't excited about us going to Iraq. But if ordered, I'd do what was asked. And, IMO, the whole political leanings is really just a huge waste of time, and seems to be important only to people who think others care about their opinion.
Anyway, like others have said, if you have doubts, than just don't go that route. That state dept. option seemed like a good idea to persue. But if you do want to join, then go for it. Only you know what you want.
webmaster - well put. i appreciate your point of view and definitely can see myself enjoying working side-by-side with people such as yourself.
while i still need to do more thinking, hearing people's differing views on this forum has provided me with some much needed insight into the mindsets of people in the military. whether or not you think i'm an a stupid anti-american liberal, thanks
chief - will do.
while i still need to do more thinking, hearing people's differing views on this forum has provided me with some much needed insight into the mindsets of people in the military. whether or not you think i'm an a stupid anti-american liberal, thanks
chief - will do.
dividebyzero
Registered User
Funny you should mention your dli-graduate friend stationed in hickam and kadena, not using his hard earned chinese skills. This, too, is one of the major problems with the military, the Navy and the Army being the most guilty of squandering these resources. I, too, graduated DLI. To say I've not been impressed with the navy's linguistic programs, would be an understatement. The Air Force, despite your friend's example (which is actually rare for them, but not as much for officers), and the Marines oddly-enough, have the best programs by far.
Unfortunately, I can tell you that if you were to go pilot, you could forget about using your language skills in any capacity for at least 6-8 years. I believe you have to be at least a LCDR to even apply for a FAO slot. Even then, that's absolutely no guarantee you'd be a FAO working in Asia for that matter.
In addition, there is the option of becoming a cryptology officer. You would be able to use your languages,perhaps everday. But kiss travel and FAO good-bye forever, cause' it's just not going to happen.
I've been following this thread intently. I'm now on the fourth year of my enlistment, yet another in a long line of my family member's serving in the armed forces, and I'm just now asking myself the very same questions about the military "attitude" that you're asking. I consider myself a liberal, however I dislike discussing my political views at work. However, since the overwhelming majority of the military is and always will be staunchly conservative, it's assumed that I am, too. Thus, I get innundated with rhetoric, including many things I find downright offensive. The assumption is that you can use the bureacratic system to resolve these
issues if simply requesting doesn't work, but what that fails to take into account is that I have to still work with and bear the scorn of the same folks everyday for the next few years, the same folks who'll be approving my leave and writing my eval's. Good times, indeed. But that is the nature of the business, I'm afraid. Still as much a "good ol' boy's" club as ever.
There is one more thing to consider, though, and it's that the majority of your impressions will have come from the enlisted side. Officers, however, are an entirely different matter. Education and a commensurate level of responsibility makes for more open-mindedness and worldliness than, say, your GED-bearing deck seaman.
Based on your desires to travel, learn and experience other cultures, and use your language skills, I definately wouldn't recommend the Navy, especially not as a pilot. If you were to insist on the military, it would have the be the air force (as far as FAO programs and accomodating travel) You'd be much better off on the civilian side, though. I was also going to mention the Dept. of State, there's always CIA and DIA, too (both of which are hurting for korean analysts)...pretty much anybody on your intel side of the house. In any case, you'd still be "serving" your country.
Unfortunately, I can tell you that if you were to go pilot, you could forget about using your language skills in any capacity for at least 6-8 years. I believe you have to be at least a LCDR to even apply for a FAO slot. Even then, that's absolutely no guarantee you'd be a FAO working in Asia for that matter.
In addition, there is the option of becoming a cryptology officer. You would be able to use your languages,perhaps everday. But kiss travel and FAO good-bye forever, cause' it's just not going to happen.
I've been following this thread intently. I'm now on the fourth year of my enlistment, yet another in a long line of my family member's serving in the armed forces, and I'm just now asking myself the very same questions about the military "attitude" that you're asking. I consider myself a liberal, however I dislike discussing my political views at work. However, since the overwhelming majority of the military is and always will be staunchly conservative, it's assumed that I am, too. Thus, I get innundated with rhetoric, including many things I find downright offensive. The assumption is that you can use the bureacratic system to resolve these
issues if simply requesting doesn't work, but what that fails to take into account is that I have to still work with and bear the scorn of the same folks everyday for the next few years, the same folks who'll be approving my leave and writing my eval's. Good times, indeed. But that is the nature of the business, I'm afraid. Still as much a "good ol' boy's" club as ever.
There is one more thing to consider, though, and it's that the majority of your impressions will have come from the enlisted side. Officers, however, are an entirely different matter. Education and a commensurate level of responsibility makes for more open-mindedness and worldliness than, say, your GED-bearing deck seaman.
Based on your desires to travel, learn and experience other cultures, and use your language skills, I definately wouldn't recommend the Navy, especially not as a pilot. If you were to insist on the military, it would have the be the air force (as far as FAO programs and accomodating travel) You'd be much better off on the civilian side, though. I was also going to mention the Dept. of State, there's always CIA and DIA, too (both of which are hurting for korean analysts)...pretty much anybody on your intel side of the house. In any case, you'd still be "serving" your country.
46Driver
"It's a mother beautiful bridge, and it's gon
I think the Webmaster nailed it with his response. Personally, I think you might have quite a good time in Naval Intelligence, perhaps do a tour as attache and then when your commitment is up make a decision on to either stay in the Navy or make the jump to the Foreign Service or another branch of the govt. Finally, 8 years goes by quicker than you can imagine. Good Luck with your decision.
psrogers
Intel Officer
So it looks like Lunar got bored with the strand. If you are still reading this, then here is my two cents:
Do not write off the Navy yet. I think there are a lot of other opinions you might have received and respected had different Naval Officers responded to you. The Navy is a great place to meet a lot of solid persons, but there isn't any way of knowing where they will be from or what their ambitions will be. It is good for anybody to have this kind of exposure, even if sometimes you disagree with them over politics and other touchy business.
As for all this talk of going to Columbia, that is a great opportunity too. But you can go to graduate school later, and being an officer in the military is something you are less likely to do later. Plus you can make money to pay for it.
Well, who the hell put me in charge? I have not been to OCS or in the Navy. But my dad was and some other people I know, and of the few people I know who do not have respect for the men and women in the military they are not to be called liberals but fools. Liberal or conservative, the military will always be necessary, period. As for the commitment, it is foolish to be afraid of commiting to something great- under that principle you would never commit to anything worth doing. What do you really think about the core values of the military?
My guess is that you will not choose the Navy. Too bad for you. If you want to be in international relations and form American foreign policy, you should first get a taste of what it looks like from the front lines.
Do not write off the Navy yet. I think there are a lot of other opinions you might have received and respected had different Naval Officers responded to you. The Navy is a great place to meet a lot of solid persons, but there isn't any way of knowing where they will be from or what their ambitions will be. It is good for anybody to have this kind of exposure, even if sometimes you disagree with them over politics and other touchy business.
As for all this talk of going to Columbia, that is a great opportunity too. But you can go to graduate school later, and being an officer in the military is something you are less likely to do later. Plus you can make money to pay for it.
Well, who the hell put me in charge? I have not been to OCS or in the Navy. But my dad was and some other people I know, and of the few people I know who do not have respect for the men and women in the military they are not to be called liberals but fools. Liberal or conservative, the military will always be necessary, period. As for the commitment, it is foolish to be afraid of commiting to something great- under that principle you would never commit to anything worth doing. What do you really think about the core values of the military?
My guess is that you will not choose the Navy. Too bad for you. If you want to be in international relations and form American foreign policy, you should first get a taste of what it looks like from the front lines.
psrogers
Intel Officer
Well, I wrote that last one after only reading the first page of this strand, so inserted there its tone makes more sense. The impregnable statement of Webmaster turns the tide and I feel like I did not need to write anything above.
Thursday I go enlist. I feel good now, because after reading that second page I remember again the positive hopes and wiser perspectives of the experienced. They were dormant in my head before, after all it is 1am, but now they are reilluminated. The sky is the limit. A few bad apple statements can spoil the strand. But a little spice properly mixed makes it all better.
Thursday I go enlist. I feel good now, because after reading that second page I remember again the positive hopes and wiser perspectives of the experienced. They were dormant in my head before, after all it is 1am, but now they are reilluminated. The sky is the limit. A few bad apple statements can spoil the strand. But a little spice properly mixed makes it all better.
Laxanation
Registered User
HAHA first of all, psrogers nice poetry. I too have been tossed back and forth with "losing your own freedom to fight for the coutry's freedom"...well let's face it you do lose some freedoms. But if you break it down, you don't lose nearly as much as you think.
Let's take a scenario of a college grad.. Say you go to work at a civilian 9-5 job everyday. You have a boss, sometimes many bosses who suck. They don't deserve to be in charge of you. Hell, you don't want anyone in charge of you! But, if you want to get paid you have to get up and go to work everyday and work with sometimes clueless people and hear bullsh** from your boss and everyone else. You love your job but the people around you are satisfied being puppets and just making the grade. You want to be at the top, you know you deserve to be but your boss doesn't see that. You have insurance, medical, income tax taken out of your check. You get denied that car loan because you haven't been at your job very long and you also have student loans to pay off now. Saving or spending money is not happening for a few years. Before you know it, you are just "making the grade" too. You may very well enjoy what you do but now flip the page and consider doing it for the Navy.
You have the same job but you are working with qualified and highly trained people just like you. Your boss is more qualified than you, which is why he/she actually deserves to be there. And your boss has bosses over him making sure he is not an a**hole to any of you and does his job correctly. You get great pay, a guaranteed 2.5 days per month off (which can rollover), cheap insurance, loans, almost free medical, sometimes housing and the list goes on. You can depend on your co-workers to be there for you or else they wouldn't be in the Navy to start with. You can trust they will get their job done and done right EVERYTIME. You want to become worldly and well-traveled. Well how about spending everyday with the most well-traveled people in the world and also doing it yourself. You want a master's degree or doctorate? THe Navy will help you do it and most likely pay for it all if you give them a couple years in return. So now you are 30 years old, you have seen the world, have a master's and spent 8 years of your life with the MOST successful, well-traveled, intelligent, athletic, down to earth group in the world, all while putting some serious cash in the bank. If you want out, get out...if not stay in and do this for the rest of your life.
Now if you had kept that civilian job, you would have just started putting serious cash in the bank probably three to four years ago. You are still paying insurance, taxes, you have a car loan going on, house payment and you have only gone on a vacation to Cancun if you are lucky a couple times (probably with your parents).
Seems to make sense to me. There is a reason a llllllllot of people are putting in applications and getting denied. It's because the Navy only takes the BEST in mind and body. In return you get everything I have just explained.
I'm 20 years old and I have not experienced any of this. It's all what I have learned because I listened to people from both sides. Most of these are facts, but some is just my opinion too. I guess it all depends on what is important to you.
Let's take a scenario of a college grad.. Say you go to work at a civilian 9-5 job everyday. You have a boss, sometimes many bosses who suck. They don't deserve to be in charge of you. Hell, you don't want anyone in charge of you! But, if you want to get paid you have to get up and go to work everyday and work with sometimes clueless people and hear bullsh** from your boss and everyone else. You love your job but the people around you are satisfied being puppets and just making the grade. You want to be at the top, you know you deserve to be but your boss doesn't see that. You have insurance, medical, income tax taken out of your check. You get denied that car loan because you haven't been at your job very long and you also have student loans to pay off now. Saving or spending money is not happening for a few years. Before you know it, you are just "making the grade" too. You may very well enjoy what you do but now flip the page and consider doing it for the Navy.
You have the same job but you are working with qualified and highly trained people just like you. Your boss is more qualified than you, which is why he/she actually deserves to be there. And your boss has bosses over him making sure he is not an a**hole to any of you and does his job correctly. You get great pay, a guaranteed 2.5 days per month off (which can rollover), cheap insurance, loans, almost free medical, sometimes housing and the list goes on. You can depend on your co-workers to be there for you or else they wouldn't be in the Navy to start with. You can trust they will get their job done and done right EVERYTIME. You want to become worldly and well-traveled. Well how about spending everyday with the most well-traveled people in the world and also doing it yourself. You want a master's degree or doctorate? THe Navy will help you do it and most likely pay for it all if you give them a couple years in return. So now you are 30 years old, you have seen the world, have a master's and spent 8 years of your life with the MOST successful, well-traveled, intelligent, athletic, down to earth group in the world, all while putting some serious cash in the bank. If you want out, get out...if not stay in and do this for the rest of your life.
Now if you had kept that civilian job, you would have just started putting serious cash in the bank probably three to four years ago. You are still paying insurance, taxes, you have a car loan going on, house payment and you have only gone on a vacation to Cancun if you are lucky a couple times (probably with your parents).
Seems to make sense to me. There is a reason a llllllllot of people are putting in applications and getting denied. It's because the Navy only takes the BEST in mind and body. In return you get everything I have just explained.
I'm 20 years old and I have not experienced any of this. It's all what I have learned because I listened to people from both sides. Most of these are facts, but some is just my opinion too. I guess it all depends on what is important to you.
Ok hey, am I the only one that got pissed off by that "I never see myself as 'American'" thing? Why in God's name would anyone even consider joining the military if you don't see yourself as American? lunar seems like a bright enough fella from what I've read, but to even consider the United States military as an occupation when you don't even consider yourself American is simply stupid and I find it a little insulting.
Lunar,
I am enlisted, and currently in Japan. First off there are definitely sailors and devil dogs alike that screw it up for the rest of us. However, in regards to your dillema.. let me use your own words to help you understand what you're getting into
"but while i am very happy because of the opportunities that america has afforded me, i never see myself as "american.""
I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789 with amendment effective 5 October 1962.)
When I took the oath it wasn't just because I wanted to fly it was because I love the United States and all that it stands for in it's melting pot of culture and of course The American Dream. If you're going to defend a country, I know that every civilian that you are representing as a uniformed officer would feel better if you cared about your duties and didn't just consider it a job.
Iltrain,
The GI George action figure disturbs me more than the political ends of invading without support of the UN. I went to school with Saudi's that were POW's, and know 3rd party Iraqi's who have actually seen family members killed because of their political beliefs and if you want to back up the things that have been happening in that country over the decades that's your deal. However, one thing I have an intollerance for are people that aren't completely informed and chose the path of ignorance. On another note, where the hell are you getting your sea stories? On top of that, if you believe everything ANY sailor says verbatim.. nevermind, it's all true.
Fly Navy,
Childish or not, I still laughed at your comment, you're a good man I'd happily work on your aircraft unless it's a C-130.
Take care,
Mike
I am enlisted, and currently in Japan. First off there are definitely sailors and devil dogs alike that screw it up for the rest of us. However, in regards to your dillema.. let me use your own words to help you understand what you're getting into
"but while i am very happy because of the opportunities that america has afforded me, i never see myself as "american.""
I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789 with amendment effective 5 October 1962.)
When I took the oath it wasn't just because I wanted to fly it was because I love the United States and all that it stands for in it's melting pot of culture and of course The American Dream. If you're going to defend a country, I know that every civilian that you are representing as a uniformed officer would feel better if you cared about your duties and didn't just consider it a job.
Iltrain,
The GI George action figure disturbs me more than the political ends of invading without support of the UN. I went to school with Saudi's that were POW's, and know 3rd party Iraqi's who have actually seen family members killed because of their political beliefs and if you want to back up the things that have been happening in that country over the decades that's your deal. However, one thing I have an intollerance for are people that aren't completely informed and chose the path of ignorance. On another note, where the hell are you getting your sea stories? On top of that, if you believe everything ANY sailor says verbatim.. nevermind, it's all true.
Fly Navy,
Childish or not, I still laughed at your comment, you're a good man I'd happily work on your aircraft unless it's a C-130.
Take care,
Mike
psrogers when I took my oath my dad swore me in, he's was a retired Lt. Col USAF at the time, that was one of the greatest feelings having my own dad pass the torch off to me, wait till you graduate tennis shoe camp (I went back when we still wore boots), that feeling is even better.
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