Military Leave in the Navy during flight school

[Gatordev]

If you are not in PTP or on deployment, there is not reason a command shouldn't approve leave. That doesn't include training command students--they're there to train.

Sometimes people have an inflated opinion of their own importance and blame it on the job. Othertimes, commands don't manage their people effectively.

As a whole, barring some unusual circumstances, e.g. the aforementioned deployment, a CGI in the S-Shops, an ALMAT or CNAF downstairs, etc, no one should be so important that they can't be missed. We're a military organization--theoretically, anyone should be able to DIE and the others should be able to carry on. If someone can't miss 5 consecutive workdays without the world ending, then their division, department, or squadron needs to unscrew itself and cross train a little. I recently had the CO take leave while the XO was TAD--that shows trust in one's subordinates, and shows good leadership.

I don't disagree with your sentiment as I agree that's the way it should be, but what if there's only 5 or 6 officers in the squadron (at the time), including the CO and/or XO? Losing one FCP to leave hurts, even more so if it's also the MO (or OpsO) and at the end of those 5 days, the CO/XO is going to want to know why another bird isn't up that was supposed to be up or what's the situation with that range event/DLQ/etc that's coming up.

 

[phrogdriver]

Every aircraft commander should be an FCP, for one.

If you've only got 6 officers, you probably only have two planes, right? I think the O-3 can route that schedule.

I'm not saying there aren't times leave can't be granted--dets, PTP, big training evolutions, etc. I'm just saying that the individuals and the unit are failing if people are having to give back lots of leave.

 

[NavAir42]

I can't say I've ever had a leave chit outright denied and I'm sure not one to keep leave on the books. There have been a few times where some negotiation took place on exact dates but that was usually at the O-4 level.

 

[phrogdriver]

I've can't remember ever denying leave or having had it denied, either. I have discussed adjusting dates.

 

[Gatordev]

Every aircraft commander should be an FCP, for one.

I don't agree on that one.

If you've only got 6 officers, you probably only have two planes, right? I think the O-3 can route that schedule.

What's an O-3?

Actually 4 planes, but if you noticed, I said 6 pilots all the time. There's still plenty of other pilots who come into fly and then go home, but they're little to no value added, day to day.

And there were other FCPs, but they all worked in Ops, and we can't pull those guys off the flight schedule to get up birds, can we? You and your crazy talk.

I'm not saying there aren't times leave can't be granted--dets, PTP, big training evolutions, etc. I'm just saying that the individuals and the unit are failing if people are having to give back lots of leave.

Again, I agree with your sentiments, and the example I gave is an oddball one (ie, Reserves), but it was the reality. Could I take leave every often? Yeah, but because of our size and day to day undermanning (not just pilots), it had to be done with thought when our det(s) were out.

 

[squorch2]

HSL seems big on not making all HACs FCPs. Not sure why.

 

[MasterBates]

No idea. I was handed a FCP letter the day I made CAPC in the E-2. No 50 PIC hour requirement, no nothing, save signoffs for having done the equivalent of 2 A profiles over the course of the previous year.

Also, as a HSL QAO, I had a finger in making/not making people FCPs. As a VAW QAO, it crosses my desk, but I really don't have a say either way.

 

[Gatordev]

I think it's amusing that this thread has become about things far more interesting than leave in the TRACOM. Well done everyone. (I can split this if you guys think it's worth the effort).

HSL seems big on not making all HACs FCPs. Not sure why.

It's even a bigger deal now, thanks in part because of a recent mishap. My comment wasn't because I think HSL FCPs are the best in the world, but because I've flown with a couple of people who were barely capable of keeping up with the flying side of things on a normal flight and when they were put on a FCF crew (or in one case, as a perspective-FCP on his "check" flight), they didn't exactly blossom.

 

[squorch2]

I suppose this then leads into "Why were they a HAC," but eh.

 

[Brett327]

I think it's amusing that this thread has become about things far more interesting than leave in the TRACOM. Well done everyone. (I can split this if you guys think it's worth the effort).



It's even a bigger deal now, thanks in part because of a recent mishap. My comment wasn't because I think HSL FCPs are the best in the world, but because I've flown with a couple of people who were barely capable of keeping up with the flying side of things on a normal flight and when they were put on a FCF crew (or in one case, as a perspective-FCP on his "check" flight), they didn't exactly blossom.

In my community, FCF pilots and ECMOs quals are independent of their MSN CDR quals. There are guys who are ready before they reach that milestone, and those who aren't until well after it. It's discussed at the Aircrews review boards, then nominated by the Ops O for Skipper's approval. With only 6 pilots per squadron, you're usually going to have 2 or 3 FCPs. Having worked in HSL QA and being the inflight VATS guy, I like the way they do (did) business, with only the most senior guys (usually the QAO) doing the FCFs. I imagine with the old Det concept, you probably just had one per Det.

Brett

 

[MasterBates]

First det, we had two, second det, everyone but me was an FCP (I was the only 2P)

 

[phrogdriver]

I don't agree on that one.

What's an O-3?

Actually 4 planes, but if you noticed, I said 6 pilots all the time. There's still plenty of other pilots who come into fly and then go home, but they're little to no value added, day to day.

And there were other FCPs, but they all worked in Ops, and we can't pull those guys off the flight schedule to get up birds, can we? You and your crazy talk.

Again, I agree with your sentiments, and the example I gave is an oddball one (ie, Reserves), but it was the reality. Could I take leave every often? Yeah, but because of our size and day to day undermanning (not just pilots), it had to be done with thought when our det(s) were out.

Reserves? Well, I don't know enough to retinue that beast specifically. Same concept in general applies. If no one can take leave, then someone isn't doing his job.

FCP? I know it varies by community, but I think that for r/w, at least, it should be the next qual after AC. It's a good way to build hours for flight leadership, anyway. If someone can't handle the EPs that are possible on an FCF, then he shouldn't be an AC. In any case, if a qual as easy to make as that is your lim fac, then your squadron needs to fix it.

 

[Gatordev]

I suppose this then leads into "Why were they a HAC," but eh.

I was waiting for that one... Funny story, but that's for another time...when we're talking in person.

In my community, FCF pilots and ECMOs quals are independent of their MSN CDR quals. There are guys who are ready before they reach that milestone, and those who aren't until well after it. It's discussed at the Aircrews review boards, then nominated by the Ops O for Skipper's approval. With only 6 pilots per squadron, you're usually going to have 2 or 3 FCPs. Having worked in HSL QA and being the inflight VATS guy, I like the way they do (did) business, with only the most senior guys (usually the QAO) doing the FCFs. I imagine with the old Det concept, you probably just had one per Det.

The Det MO and the OIC will be FCPs. Sometimes the OpsO, depending on how proactive he/she may be and/or their "aptitude." If you have a HAC in the rack, he may be one as well.

 

[Gatordev]

Reserves? Well, I don't know enough to retinue that beast specifically. Same concept in general applies. If no one can take leave, then someone isn't doing his job.

FCP? I know it varies by community, but I think that for r/w, at least, it should be the next qual after AC. It's a good way to build hours for flight leadership, anyway. If someone can't handle the EPs that are possible on an FCF, then he shouldn't be an AC. In any case, if a qual as easy to make as that is your lim fac, then your squadron needs to fix it.

In person, I'm happy to explain it (or on the "high side" of AW). It was a weird animal, which slowly worked itself out, as far as one of the examples I gave. But when the det deployed, the squadron really couldn't fix itself. There was just a lot of normal squadron work (that we all know) and no extra bodies to help because of the way it's set up. Not a complaint nor a chest-beating, just an interesting dynamic of the command.

 

[MasterBates]

HAC in a Rack. Have not heard that term in a while.

I was supposed to be one for a good deal MED cruise.. Then the cruise got canceled.