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Mishap videos

GroundPounder

GroundPounder

Well-Known Member
I have noticed that there is a policy that Naval Aviators follow that prohibits public specualtion about airplane incidents. With that it mind, why are videos that show recent mishaps and obvious fatal accidents involving carrier landings?

There is I'm sure training value to ya'll in viewing them, but I can see no reason for them to be released to the general public. I was an Infantry officer, and between that and my 17 years in law enforcement I've seen more death and destruction than I've cared to. It always amazes me that anyone would want to see crash videos for entertainment.

Are they leaked, or released after an accident investigation?
 
Schnugg

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Often videos are made by the public (like an airshow) and are public domain.

Judge Advocate General Command Investigations may contain video evidence which can become public through the FOIA.

An example would be the ramp strike of a Hornet off Australia in early 2006 that was in the press.
 
HeyJoe

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The policy against speculation is initially and primarily aimed at letting the CoC track down and inform the family before everyone starts gabbing about the causes. Secondarily, often times speculation is harmful to the investigation and serves no purpose than to confuse the issue. There is always a formal Mishap Investigation and companion but separate and distinct JAG investigation that are conducted. Leaking anything is frowned upon and dealt with appropriately. After the investigations report out and are endorsed up the CoC, which can take a year or so, then certain facts are released, but not everything especially in case of the Mishap investigation.

Ambulance chasing lawyers would love to see speculation and get their hands on everything. Some carrier PLAT videos are used for training, but unless you're specific about the videos, it's hard to tell which ones you are concerned about (ie if it was at an airshow Navy can hardly confiscate all the video taken).
 
GroundPounder

GroundPounder

Well-Known Member
Mostly refering to the PLAT videos, and those that are obviously taken from official sources.

I understand that stuff taken at airshows by the public is going to get out, I just don't know why video taken by the Navy would get out to those of us in the public that have no reason to see it.
 
nittany03

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The reason for our lack of speculation is that we don't want to allow comments by Naval Aviators/NFOs/studs to become public knowledge and snowballed up into some reporter's BS half-informed story on "what went wrong." It's a credibility thing. Joe Schmoe can prattle on, but doesn't have credibility in the matter.

The other reason we limit such discussions around here is that we are, as a group, closer to the source, if you will. It would be horrible indeed for, say, a T-45 to go down, and some idiot to post something like "oh, crap, I had a buddy Joe on his FAM solo out there, I hope that wasn't him." Then the next thing you know Joe's mom/wife/girlfriend/whoever picks that up through the rumor mill that he's dead or seriously hurt before anyone in charge even knows what's going on. Whether it indeed turns out to be him, or some other guy out flying.

As to the videos, well, it's the Information Age. After awhile I imagine it's all fair game according to the laws of statistics. The crashes on NASCAR make SportsCenter; I'm not surprised ours make YouTube. People want to sit on their butts and watch. For better or worse.

Edit: Older heads than me have covered it better, I see . . .
 
HeyJoe

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
GroundPounder said:
Mostly refering to the PLAT videos, and those that are obviously taken from official sources.

I understand that stuff taken at airshows by the public is going to get out, I just don't know why video taken by the Navy would get out to those of us in the public that have no reason to see it.
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The Safety Center actually saw benefit in assembling a whole sequence of "Crash n Bash" video to raise awareness and get people's attention. Most were not fatal, but some were. It was used successfully at Tailhook to get folks to their booth and start talking about the video and their own experiences, etc.

Why people would watch it over and over, I don't know....maybe why people watch car races and get excited to see crashes.
 
cosmania

cosmania

Gitty Up!
pilot
I will admit that I have a fetish for crash and burn footage. I don't know why. I was always glued to those videos in the P'cola O'Club and other places. Perhaps I always put myself in their shoes to figure out what I would do. I can't help myself. I have to watch.
 
GroundPounder

GroundPounder

Well-Known Member
cosmania said:
I will admit that I have a fetish for crash and burn footage. I don't know why. I was always glued to those videos in the P'cola O'Club and other places. Perhaps I always put myself in their shoes to figure out what I would do. I can't help myself. I have to watch.
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I can see why it would be helpful for you to watch. I've seen countless police killed on video, and thats why I watch, to learn something if I'm ever in the same spot.
 
millerjd

millerjd

Stayin' alive
GroundPounder said:
I can see why it would be helpful for you to watch. I've seen countless police killed on video, and thats why I watch, to learn something if I'm ever in the same spot.
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I like to check out ntsb.gov and the aviation section once in awhile and read on completed investigations. Aviation incidents/accidents are different from the typical car crash in that in most cases it is never one failure whether human or machine that caused the incident or accident. The ntsb is good at replaying the series of events that led up to the final event and can put what you are doing into perspective that much like the sea, can be unforgiving if not taken seriously.

Occasionally I come by one that makes me mad, like Air Florida Flight 90 and make me hope to jebus that I never ever become the complacent and stupid and hurt other people like that.
 
A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
This is not "news" ... but just to reinforce what some others have said, as we seem to have to tighten up with each succeeding crash.

It does little good for the "unwashed" ... and that includes many/most of the junior partners in the Naval Aviation community .... to get seriously involved in crash flicks (videos) until the post mortems are in -- The initial reports and suggested causes are often superficial and frequently incomplete and just plain ... W-R-O-N-G. Same in the airlines.

While "interesting" in the semi-ghoulish ready-room context -- as we ARE intimately involved in living AND dying on a daily basis; little purpose, other than gratuitous speculation (which will take place anyway) and sensationalism will transpire from "early" discussions -- so let the shoot-from the lip" civilians do that. We stay "above" the fray and stick to "just the facts, Ma'am ... just the facts."

The one time, in the pre-"don't talk or speculate about the accident" days of NAVAIR aircraft accidents that I observed was shortly following a fatal T-34B crash @ Silverhill while still in VT-1. Both the Instructor and STUD were killed in an approach turn stall .... on a pre-solo check.

They brought back all the aircraft pieces and assembled them in a hangar @ Saufley -- our home plate in VT-1 -- and made each and every STUD in all 4 Flights file past the wreckage, getting a good look at everything which included the fore and aft instrument panels still covered with blood. A tough lesson; "tough love" in the extreme, it was letting us in on a little secret at an early age: what we had chosen to do was a dangerous and unforgiving profession. Most of us were affected by that "crash tour" -- big time. Did it do any "good"?? I don't know .... but that's the way "they " did it , back then. Another occasion, we picked up @ 5 lbs of "meat" on a crash site -- all that was left of a human -- and it was a friend. But strangely, we found his wedding ring. Tough "love", to be sure ...

Suggestion: wait for the final accident port mortems to come in -- unless there's just something so obvious that it screams early on for everyones' attention -- and learn from that. These NavSafCen "crash flicks" have become the NAVAIR euivalent of "Death on the Highways", that immortal offering of what NOT to see when learning to drive in high-school drivers' ed.

Otherwise, what are you learning from from premature judgements?? In general?? Speculation and sensationalism ... that's what .
 
Joe Kaposi

Joe Kaposi

New Member
cosmania said:
I will admit that I have a fetish for crash and burn footage. I don't know why. I was always glued to those videos in the P'cola O'Club and other places. Perhaps I always put myself in their shoes to figure out what I would do. I can't help myself. I have to watch.
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Any copies to share? I like to collect carrier mishap video's myself.
 
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