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Missions in IMC
- Thread starter FlyMikeFly
- Start date
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
To get back from the inevitable thread-jack (at least it wasn't about hookers & blow), I've flown a number of missions in IMC. Truth be told, it can be done - but you have to weigh your comfort level, the comfort level of the crew and dash 2, and the importance of the mission.
I flew at night in 1/2 or worse vis, battling vertigo (swapping controls every 5-10 minutes) the whole time because I had to. I had a 4 year old that got caught in the crossfire in the back, and he needed me to get him to the combat surgical hospital. There was no way I was going to say no to that mission.
I didn't fly in 1 mile vis to go pick up a general and take him to some meeting. The risk wasn't worth it. Throw in the fact that it was 3 miles at another, closer airfield and there was a Phrog squadron there to support.
Got my ass chewed both times - for pushing the weather in scenario 1, and for not pushing the weather for scenario 2. I wonder where other's priorities were?
I flew at night in 1/2 or worse vis, battling vertigo (swapping controls every 5-10 minutes) the whole time because I had to. I had a 4 year old that got caught in the crossfire in the back, and he needed me to get him to the combat surgical hospital. There was no way I was going to say no to that mission.
I didn't fly in 1 mile vis to go pick up a general and take him to some meeting. The risk wasn't worth it. Throw in the fact that it was 3 miles at another, closer airfield and there was a Phrog squadron there to support.
Got my ass chewed both times - for pushing the weather in scenario 1, and for not pushing the weather for scenario 2. I wonder where other's priorities were?
If you haven't guessed it, there are considerable differences between the ways helos and fixed-wing counter IMC. Helos need to be closer to the ground than fixed wing, and cannot perform their missions at all from above the clouds. "Lower (altitude), slower (reduce speed), tighter (the formation), circumnavigate (the Wx if possible), and land (if unsafe to continue)" is the helo pilot's standard weather reaction brief.
Fixed wing reactions will vary according to mission. They are more willing to take formations into the goo (no rotors to whack together) and many of their missions can be completed without reference to the ground. Think an E-2C needs good visibility to give radar information? He only needs good weather to takeoff and land. For strike aircraft, their ability to contend with weather is a function of the type of weapons they're employing and the ROE.
For tiltrotors, we've got some of the best of both. We still have the lower, slower, etc. option to some extent, but we've also got the ability to go high for awhile and come down. I'd still like a terrain-following radar and/or a multi-mode radar like the CV-22 to make it a true all-Wx platform, but it's pretty good.
I'll apologize a little for speaking for the f/w guys, but I wanted to summarize some points and I don't think I talked completely out my ass.
Fixed wing reactions will vary according to mission. They are more willing to take formations into the goo (no rotors to whack together) and many of their missions can be completed without reference to the ground. Think an E-2C needs good visibility to give radar information? He only needs good weather to takeoff and land. For strike aircraft, their ability to contend with weather is a function of the type of weapons they're employing and the ROE.
For tiltrotors, we've got some of the best of both. We still have the lower, slower, etc. option to some extent, but we've also got the ability to go high for awhile and come down. I'd still like a terrain-following radar and/or a multi-mode radar like the CV-22 to make it a true all-Wx platform, but it's pretty good.
I'll apologize a little for speaking for the f/w guys, but I wanted to summarize some points and I don't think I talked completely out my ass.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Maybe not what your helo did, this was the case, but there are missions that I have flown above the cloud deck. Mostly RMP/SSC and ES work.
There are some helos that can do their mission in the goo.
I was thinking purely of Marine helo missions, of which, off the top of my head, only C&C could really be performed in the goo, and probably not as well.
Well... I have canceled plenty of training hops for weather, and not felt a bit of regret about doing so.
However, when we flew in Northern Iraq during the invasion in '03, we had the worst weather I have ever seen. The mountains in Northern Iraq and that region of Turkey rise to well above 10,000' and, on the the two occasions when I was lucky enough enough to see them in broad daylight and clear weather, they looked like the alps.
We had to tank right above those same mountains. I'll never forget the flight I led where we radar joined on the tanker IMC; I didn't see him until I was within 100'. I was actually asking the tanker if he could see me! Thank God my wingman stayed with me. We both got our gas OK, although the basket was moving like I had never seen. The 135 was bad enough in smooth skies, but that took the cake.
We then went in country and, although I could see the weather was clear above 35000 I just couldn't get above 34000 in our configuration. So, we went scooting above Iraq flirting with their SA-2 rings to help out some guys on the ground. My wingman did finally lose me at one point, but we each still managed to deliver on our separate dmpis.
It turns out that two of the four sections flying on the cycle I just described turned around and went home without ever even finding the tanker. So, I guess it is aircrew dependent. I was probably just too young and dumb to be sufficiently scared. It was all worth it to know we helped the guys on the ground. The Iraqis never did anything to scare me. I went in expecting Desert Storm 2; the reality was the Iraqis were scarcely even a factor to us in the air. However the guys in the ground in the North were <2000 vs. 100,000+ Iraqi's. We were the only backup they had.
However, when we flew in Northern Iraq during the invasion in '03, we had the worst weather I have ever seen. The mountains in Northern Iraq and that region of Turkey rise to well above 10,000' and, on the the two occasions when I was lucky enough enough to see them in broad daylight and clear weather, they looked like the alps.
We had to tank right above those same mountains. I'll never forget the flight I led where we radar joined on the tanker IMC; I didn't see him until I was within 100'. I was actually asking the tanker if he could see me! Thank God my wingman stayed with me. We both got our gas OK, although the basket was moving like I had never seen. The 135 was bad enough in smooth skies, but that took the cake.
We then went in country and, although I could see the weather was clear above 35000 I just couldn't get above 34000 in our configuration. So, we went scooting above Iraq flirting with their SA-2 rings to help out some guys on the ground. My wingman did finally lose me at one point, but we each still managed to deliver on our separate dmpis.
It turns out that two of the four sections flying on the cycle I just described turned around and went home without ever even finding the tanker. So, I guess it is aircrew dependent. I was probably just too young and dumb to be sufficiently scared. It was all worth it to know we helped the guys on the ground. The Iraqis never did anything to scare me. I went in expecting Desert Storm 2; the reality was the Iraqis were scarcely even a factor to us in the air. However the guys in the ground in the North were <2000 vs. 100,000+ Iraqi's. We were the only backup they had.
My ride is generally considered to be solar powered! 
The COD does not conduct shipboard ops after sunset (no launch w/in an hour of sunset). However IMC Doesn't effect us. If the wx is bad enough for the ship to canx flight ops, there will be a COD inbound, I guarantee it!
The COD does not conduct shipboard ops after sunset (no launch w/in an hour of sunset). However IMC Doesn't effect us. If the wx is bad enough for the ship to canx flight ops, there will be a COD inbound, I guarantee it!
Awesome replies everyone. Sounds like it is very platform dependent, maybe moreso than mission dependent.
Naaaaaaa .... three words: repeated canopy rolls.
If only Michaelangelo had an A-6 when he painted the ceiling ....
Bragging rights were earned when no airplanes launched from the CV except all weather attack jets....and the brass balls were always earned by the last event recovery tanker.
IMC missions suck. Post gulf war, the entire gulf was one giant milkbowl from the burning oil fields in Kuwait. You'd launch day Case III, IMC and marshall and recover the same.
If you were lucky and the winds were right you'd get above the clag (high 30's) or pop out of it near the Iraqi border.
Sections flew IMC form, larger gaggles separated by altitude blocks. JTIDS PPLI was a life saver.
It was, and still is, mentally and physically fatiguing for all involved to do that for 5-7 hours.
If you were lucky and the winds were right you'd get above the clag (high 30's) or pop out of it near the Iraqi border.
Sections flew IMC form, larger gaggles separated by altitude blocks. JTIDS PPLI was a life saver.
It was, and still is, mentally and physically fatiguing for all involved to do that for 5-7 hours.
That's the big thing, the insidious thing about long time/long term instrument flying -- military or civilian. It's fatiguing and it drains you ...
You fly for hours in the "clag" and then you have to find that little postage stamp called a carrier and land on it, day or night, VFR/IFR (kinda sounds like Bridges at Toko-Ri, huh?) .
Or shoot a manual approach to a 2001/2 runway when you've been flying for hours on the backside of the clock.
Or shoot an approach at night/in the clag to the BOAT with a NORDO wingy ...
.... sometimes you just want to scream: "STOP"!!!
If only ...