More angry JFK Ground Controllers

[firefriendly]

Alright this is my last post since I had a feeling this would degrade into this. I didn't attack HAL, he got on me. I simply presented the rules the FAA gives us and expects us to abide by. Before posting I spoke with a fully certified controller for ground/local at the nearby International airport. Just because you have experience, doesn't mean you are right all the time. I also conferred with a 777 Captain who flies the ORD-China route. I do not go to riddle. For all you know Tom, I could be a certified controller since the FAA age requirement is 18. Are the aviators air traffic controllers? They have experience and I respect that, but does that negate my ability to counter argue a certain point? As kaybaydog put it, it can be unclear at times, I didn't see this devolving into personal attack posts. I respectfully challenged HAL. Is the status quo always right? Perhaps you'll do something the way the "experienced" person tells you to becuase "it's how it's always done" instead of your proper instruction. That directly conflicts with safety. It is also why I heeded to much higher experienced authorities, a controller and captain. Take care all.

Also, ICAO doesn't require foreign pilots to be 'fluent' in English. They have to be able to properly demonstrate their English with regards to Air Traffic Control terminology and phraseology. That is hardly English fluency. This can be problematic in emergencies where one is trying to explain to the other something using nonstandard phraseology.

 

[Brett327]

Alright this is my last post since I had a feeling this would degrade into this. I didn't attack HAL, he got on me. I simply presented the rules the FAA gives us and expects us to abide by. Before posting I spoke with a fully certified controller for ground/local at the nearby International airport. Just because you have experience, doesn't mean you are right all the time. I also conferred with a 777 Captain who flies the ORD-China route. I do not go to riddle. For all you know Tom, I could be a certified controller since the FAA age requirement is 18. Are the aviators air traffic controllers? They have experience and I respect that, but does that negate my ability to counter argue a certain point? As kaybaydog put it, it can be unclear at times, I didn't see this devolving into personal attack posts. I respectfully challenged HAL. Is the status quo always right? Perhaps you'll do something the way the "experienced" person tells you to becuase "it's how it's always done" instead of your proper instruction. That directly conflicts with safety. It is also why I heeded to much higher experienced authorities, a controller and captain. Take care all.

Experience isn't always right, but it usually is. I don't think anyone is attacking you personally, just trying to point out that everything isn't always as cut and dried as the "textbook" can make it seem. As with NATOPS, FAA rules and procedures aren't a substitute for sound judgment. Enough said.

Brett

 

[BigIron]

No need for the 2 BDCP SNAs to have it out here. Everyone simmer down.

 

[scoober78]

No need for the 2 BDCP SNAs to have it out here. Everyone simmer down.

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words...

 

[firefriendly]

Experience isn't always right, but it usually is. As with NATOPS, FAA rules and procedures aren't a substitute for sound judgment. Enough said.

Brett

I know I said I wouldn't post again, sorry. Yes Sir, that is true as long as you have a justifiable reason for deviating. If not, the tapes get pulled and everyone starts analyzing, was this a contributing cause of something? They do that anyways for quality control. Anyways, my opinion was, it wasn't really necessary for this guy to deviate from standards. Instead he got frustrated and said what he wanted in order to get what he needed as fast as possible. I will redact(go Dwight) my previous speculation that he might have been messing with this guy. \

v/r,

 

[Gatordev]

How else should JFK ground have asked the question?

In my opinion, ie, what makes sense to me and not what's necessarily in a book, ATC should have said "Interrogative, have you been cleared into the ramp." He did say this the second time and it apparently still didn't help, but technically, he would have been more correct.

Personally, I always thought "interrogative" was kind of dumb, kind of like asking if you can ask a question, but this seems to be a good example of how it can help.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I gave the clip a second listen. I still find nothing wrong with the controllers phraseology. It is the same thing I've heard hundreds of times at many different international airports including airports in other countries where English is not the national language.

I still think the statement that the controller was "messing" with the Air China crew is pure Bull Shit. Controllers do not do this, especially at a busy international airport. It is the quickest way to cause an accident or to get themselves into job trouble. Plus it is usually so busy on Ground, an incident like this causes planes to stop everywhere on the taxiways as they can't get follow-on taxi instructions from the controller. Rarely is a plane cleared all the way to the ramp or it's gate.

I'll concede that technically the more correct way to ask might have been "has Ramp Control authorized you to proceed into the ramp?" but it is common practice to phrase it the way he did. I will even bet that it would be more understandable to an "English limited" crew to phrase it the way he did because that is how the vast majority of controllers would have phrased it and that is what the "English-limited" crew would be use to hearing. (This is the difference between book knowledge and experience.)

This Air China crew were dumb asses plain and simple.