Naval Introductory Flight Training (NIFE) Phase 3 AAR: Flying

[flgator92]

How are they still contracted?

Come to think about it, when I looked at my Jeppesen logbook from my time in IFS, my landings reported were like 10-15 per sortie. Thinking back, I never came close to that. Six or seven was the norm. One day I put a tally on my kneeboard each time I landed. Instructor reported 10, I only had six down. Inflating the logbooks for time and for item inflation seems to be the way they do it at the contract FBOs. Feel bad for those who struggle and when they go to a board, I'm sure the instructors at API say, "how can you not land the Cessna/Piper correctly, you've had a 100 landings!?" The student is probably thinking, "100 right, more like 60..." It's an issue.

 

[0621 Hertz]

Coming from flying with part 61 and 141 programs, inflating the number of landings and rounding up flight hours (logging a 1.5 flight as a 2.0) is EXTREMELY common by instructors, especially due to the Colgan Air 3407 fiasco.

 

[flgator92]

Coming from flying with part 61 and 141 programs, inflating the number of landings and rounding up flight hours (logging a 1.5 flight as a 2.0) is EXTREMELY common by instructors, especially due to the Colgan Air 3407 fiasco.

Whoa... just looked at that NTSB report: the pilot at the controls not only reacted improperly to the stall at shaker, but disabled the stick pusher that would've pushed the nose over automatically- which would lower the wing's AOA and, of course, gain back some of the lost airspeed, breaking the stall. Three failed civilian checkrides later... that's heinous. You practice stall recovery and approach turn stall recovery your first couple flights in a T6. Benign manuevers, usually. Even SNFOs do it ... no quality control at civ flight schools, all pay to play.

 

[scoolbubba]

The military IPs do the last flight because SkyWarriors has been caught intentionally failing students on their checkrides in order to bill additional training events to the government.

Never underestimate SkyWarriors ability to cut costs and corners in training instruction and maintenance wherever they feel they can get away with it.

That place makes used car salesmen look like saints.

 

[HAL Pilot]

but disabled the stick pusher that would've pushed the nose over automatically-

Nope...not even close.

Stalls in a transport category aircraft are not a benign maneuver. Stall at a high flight level and you’ll lose 10k or so feet recovering. A full stall at low altitude will use a couple thousand. Imminent stalls (stick shaker, buffet or warning horn) is benign if properly reacted to.

The Captain got too slow, the stick shaker went off and the Captain responded by abruptly pulling back on the yoke, greatly over rotating the nose. He added power but only to about 75%.

Even though the this Captain was an incompetent idiot, at that time stall recovery for transport category aircraft was to power out without altitude loss or minimal altitude loss. We gently pulled the nose slightly up but not pass level while going to max power. The common perception was there was plenty of unused power to increase airspeed/lift and lower AOA. The Cologan crash changed this to lowering the nose and accepting altitude loss.

Not all stick shakers lower the nose. Some fly by wire aircraft such as the A330 have built in protections where it will lower/raise the nose or level the wings if a certain AOA, g load, etc. conditions are met. But these have nothing to do with the stick shaker which is an independent system which does not change control surface position. I’ve also flown many non-fly by wire aircraft where the stick shaker did not lower the nose.

I’ve never flown the Q400 so I can’t say how it’s stick shaker works. It was not disabled in the Cologan crash but was overridden when the Captain pulled back on the yoke.

 

[Griz882]

Nope...not even close.

Stalls in a transport category aircraft are not a benign maneuver. Stall at a high flight level and you’ll lose 10k or so feet recovering. A full stall at low altitude will use a couple thousand. Imminent stalls (stick shaker, buffet or warning horn) is benign if properly reacted to.

The Captain got too slow, the stick shaker went off and the Captain responded by abruptly pulling back on the yoke, greatly over rotating the nose. He added power but only to about 75%.

Even though the this Captain was an incompetent idiot, at that time stall recovery for transport category aircraft was to power out without altitude loss or minimal altitude loss. We gently pulled the nose slightly up but not pass level while going to max power. The common perception was there was plenty of unused power to increase airspeed/lift and lower AOA. The Cologan crash changed this to lowering the nose and accepting altitude loss.

Not all stick shakers lower the nose. Some fly by wire aircraft such as the A330 have built in protections where it will lower/raise the nose or level the wings if a certain AOA, g load, etc. conditions are met. But these have nothing to do with the stick shaker which is an independent system which does not change control surface position. I’ve also flown many non-fly by wire aircraft where the stick shaker did not lower the nose.

I’ve never flown the Q400 so I can’t say how it’s stick shaker works. It was not disabled in the Cologan crash but was overridden when the Captain pulled back on the yoke.

In my aircraft I find that when I blow an approach and start creeping toward a stall the stick shaker is activated by my butt sucking up some seat cushion.

 

[ChuckMK23]

The military IPs do the last flight because SkyWarriors has been caught intentionally failing students on their checkrides in order to bill additional training events to the government.

Never underestimate SkyWarriors ability to cut costs and corners in training instruction and maintenance wherever they feel they can get away with it.

Similar practices while they had numerous RTP contracts with regional airlines.

 

[zippy]

How are they still contracted?

Economy of scale and cheapness probably. There was an investigation and they lost their contract for a while, paid some penance and got it back eventually.

As chuck mentioned they started doing RTP with the airlines like 3-4 years ago and immediately started double billing (put two RTP studs in a plane and billed for both flying solo) the airlines, and having their RTP students pick up planes they bought sight unseen and without mechanics inspections to ferry back. RTP students started reporting maintenance malpractices to their sponsor airlines and included video, and then they had a gear collapse on landing in one of their twins and the airlines started pulling their contracts for RTP. I’m not sure if they have any RTP business left or if swindling the tax payer is their primary focus these days.

 

[DanMa1156]

The syllabus as described seems inadequate and appears to be another attrition gate.

I am pretty confident that this is precisely designed to attrite earlier rather than later.

 

[Birdbrain]

I fondly remember IFS at Jack Edwards. A nice long drive down the Gulf Coast beachfront to Alabama listening to podcasts, putzing around over Mobile Bay at a few thousand feet or a few hundred, feezing cold mornings preflighting a frosty Cessna 172 that was as old as my parents, practicing landings over a couple million dollars worth of yachts, stopping at that retro 50's diner for a hot meal after a flight...plus the solo at Fairhope was one of the best days of my budding flying career.

Ground school is not remembered so fondly.

 

[Jim123]

...plus the solo at Fairhope was one of the best days of my budding flying career.

It's a cliché but you only get one solo and you'll always remember it.

It's an awesome feeling when the realization hits you during that flight and it'll always be an awesome feeling every time you remember back to the moment.

 

[Dontcallmegump]

I am pretty confident that this is precisely designed to attrite earlier rather than later.

The Divo in charge of the program told us exactly that when I started. Its no secret and anyone who says otherwise is kidding. The sucky part is its incredibly inconsistent in screwing good SNA/SNFOsand passing ones who don't stand a chance.

 

[VMO4]

I thought Skywarriors sounded familiar. In 2017 , before I realized God intended us to fly tailwheel aircraft and bought my Cub, I sold my 1968 Cessna 172 N46030 which I had owned for several years. I sold it though a broker and tracked it down and found it was at Skywarriors. It had spent a bunch of years in Chicago in a flying club and had just over 13,000 hours when I sold it. I hope she treated any such SNA's well.

 

[nittany03]

The military IPs do the last flight because SkyWarriors has been caught intentionally failing students on their checkrides in order to bill additional training events to the government.

Just more evidence for my theory that some people are the way they are only because you'll get in too much trouble if you punch them in the face.

 

[nittany03]

I am pretty confident that this is precisely designed to attrite earlier rather than later.

The Divo in charge of the program told us exactly that when I started. Its no secret and anyone who says otherwise is kidding. The sucky part is its incredibly inconsistent in screwing good SNA/SNFOsand passing ones who don't stand a chance.

So much of what I've seen that's fucked up with the active component and the Navy in general flows from this mindset. Don't bother with too much training and mentorship. Why bother when you can just take X percent more than you need, throw shit at the wall, and let the NSS curve/FITREP 500/selection board weed folks out? After all, if they didn't make it, they must be non-hackers anyway, because you figured it out, and you're the winged aviator/CO/[insert competitive billet here]. Right?

Yeah, I get that some people aren't going to make it through the program, but there's no magical way to push the attrition curve to the left. Some people just need a bit more time before the light bulb goes on, and some people walk on water until they don't. After a certain point, you're just abdicating the responsibility to teach. That's the reason the Navy details people to these things called training commands, and expects that they're going to be, what's the word? Ah . . . instructors. Not evaluators.