Navigation Today

[dilbert123]

Many thanks for your replies. I find this site fascinating and somewhat nostalgic even if I don't understand most of the abbreviations you use today.

As to FlyBoyd"s remark, "I have no idea how they did it. It was all f-ing magic as far as I was concerned" I totally agree. I found celestial to be very accurate and I was always confident of the results but it always seemed a bit like magic to me as well. The P-3 Charlies were just being introduced with inertial nav when I was flying and we were very envious of them. I think at the time it was the only Navy a/c using inertial. I heard it was very accurate. At that time the P-3 was the hottest thing in the multi-engine crowd and I was disappointed I never got to fly one.

So much has changed since my time with piston engines and round dials. When I fly commercial today I check the cockpit on leaving and I don't recognize much of what is on the instrument panels today. But I also find in reading entries on this site that there are a lot of things that are constant, your struggles and concerns are pretty much the same as in my day, and no doubt the same for every generation of Airedale. I am very proud of my time in and have the greatest respect for all of you today who are continuing a fine tradition.

 

[Pugs]

But I also find in reading entries on this site that there are a lot of things that are constant, your struggles and concerns are pretty much the same as in my day, and no doubt the same for every generation of Airedale. I am very proud of my time in and have the greatest respect for all of you today who are continuing a fine tradition.

Words to live by for all of us as we approach Naval Air's 100th Birthday. We're as much a band of brothers as any other service and community. Well, except for the helo guys. :icon_wink

 

[Cavrone]

I was an enlisted nav for KC-130F/R models in the late 90's. Even after winging, it took a good 6 months and a lot of overwater nav flights to get qualified as a celestial navigator. Marine reserve KC-130T models still have enlisted navs, but rarely if ever do cell anymore.

 

[CommodoreMid]

Pretty much. The CNS/ATM (Communication Navigation Surveillance/Air Traffic Management) RINU-G's have GPS units embedded. The only drawback is not many people have been able to get proficient with it. When I left VP-30 in March of this year they were starting to ramp up the CNS/ATM sims during our TAC phase. The newer Navs seem to be the ones with the most exposure to it, and that isn't really saying much.

Ya, they were telling us odds are when we check in there's a good chance we're going to get dubbed the CNS/ATM SME. Fortunately they've altered the syllabus to add the fam for the box in the Nav phase, as opposed to after you wing since a good number of the planes at 30 have it now. My second nav phase flight was not fun when I get out to the plane and basically have to figure out a new box. The tac phase sims I feel gave me a good working knowledge of it, but of course who knows how long I'll retain that buttonology if I don't happen to fly a CNS/ATM bird for awhile.

 

[Jim123]

Well, except for the helo guys. :icon_wink

+1 but only out of pity

 

[insanebikerboy]

Well, except for the helo guys. :icon_wink

Someone just got their name put on the no-pickup list!

 

[RotorHead04]

... except for the helo guys. :icon_wink

Wait and see ... I think we will see significant representation here: http://www.amazon.com/Fly-Navy-Cele...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279863938&sr=8-2

 

[Pugs]

Wait and see ... I think we will see significant representation here: http://www.amazon.com/Fly-Navy-Cele...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279863938&sr=8-2

Good looking book. Hopefully The Cutting Edge of the era. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[TheBubba]

To answer another question posed that hasn't been addressed... They teach celestial nav at USNA (Class of 2005 here for a timing reference) . It was part of our navigation syllabus... 2 classes. One basic nav and the other was cel nav. I also got a course in cel nav while I was learning how to sail. Don't remember alot of it now, but I definitely did use it. Never in the air though. Going through flight school is was VOR/TACAN or clock-chart-ground.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Many thanks for your replies. I find this site fascinating and somewhat nostalgic even if I don't understand most of the abbreviations you use today.

As to FlyBoyd"s remark, "I have no idea how they did it. It was all f-ing magic as far as I was concerned" I totally agree. I found celestial to be very accurate and I was always confident of the results but it always seemed a bit like magic to me as well. The P-3 Charlies were just being introduced with inertial nav when I was flying and we were very envious of them. I think at the time it was the only Navy a/c using inertial. I heard it was very accurate. At that time the P-3 was the hottest thing in the multi-engine crowd and I was disappointed I never got to fly one.

So much has changed since my time with piston engines and round dials. When I fly commercial today I check the cockpit on leaving and I don't recognize much of what is on the instrument panels today. But I also find in reading entries on this site that there are a lot of things that are constant, your struggles and concerns are pretty much the same as in my day, and no doubt the same for every generation of Airedale. I am very proud of my time in and have the greatest respect for all of you today who are continuing a fine tradition.

I flew in the newest P-3Bs in the early 1970s, and the inertials we had weren't accurate enough to be totally trusted. At that time, electronic nav aids (LORAN A / C) weren't consistently available 1200 miles out from Hawaii or when we were flying over the Indian Ocean flying out of Diego Garcia, so it was primarily DR nav with celestial for fixes (and radar in the IO searching for the island chain leading us back to DG). I remember dropping large area search patterns of sonobuoys at night over the North Pacific and taking three-star shots on top of as many of the buoy drops as we could. In my experience, celestial nav using periscopic sextants by an experienced navigator in a plane in stable flight (we had rough air at times, or the pilots sometimes turned before we finished the shots) could be very accurate. When I came back to VP again in the mid-1980s with the P-3B HACCLCS mod, the inertials were much better and we were getting away from celestial nav although there was still a requirement to maintain the qualification. When we transitioned to the P-3Cmod we had much better inertials and Omega, so celestial played even less of a role in navigation.

Remembering back to those flights with nothing but DR, the inertial, and celestial for nav, I wonder what would happen these days if GPS were suddenly unavailable or became unreliable for some reason.

 

[LFDtoUSMC]

^^
**Not about flying, but GPS usage in general**


In my line of work I have seen a significant decrease in our abilities to navigate without some form of electronic maps. Whether this be GPS or a pre-loaded GIS map onto our MDT (mobile data terminal)'s in the trucks. The old guys complain that the new kids don’t learn the streets like they had to. And it shows when for whatever reason the MDT is down; its frustratingly humorous watching somebody flip through a map book like a mad man.

If all GPS capability went down or became unreliable I think it would be something like this.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZXM_g3mqew

 

[Brett327]

I flew in the newest P-3Bs in the early 1970s, and the inertials we had weren't accurate enough to be totally trusted. At that time, electronic nav aids (LORAN A / C) weren't consistently available 1200 miles out from Hawaii or when we were flying over the Indian Ocean flying out of Diego Garcia, so it was primarily DR nav with celestial for fixes (and radar in the IO searching for the island chain leading us back to DG). I remember dropping large area search patterns of sonobuoys at night over the North Pacific and taking three-star shots on top of as many of the buoy drops as we could. In my experience, celestial nav using periscopic sextants by an experienced navigator in a plane in stable flight (we had rough air at times, or the pilots sometimes turned before we finished the shots) could be very accurate. When I came back to VP again in the mid-1980s with the P-3B HACCLCS mod, the inertials were much better and we were getting away from celestial nav although there was still a requirement to maintain the qualification. When we transitioned to the P-3Cmod we had much better inertials and Omega, so celestial played even less of a role in navigation.

Remembering back to those flights with nothing but DR, the inertial, and celestial for nav, I wonder what would happen these days if GPS were suddenly unavailable or became unreliable for some reason.

Inertials of today are all/mostly of the EGI type which couples a GPS receiver to a ring laser gyro INS with no moving parts. These EGIs are extremely reliable and if the GPS goes out the drift rate is only .5-.7 NM per hour. So in operation, the INS is constantly updated by the GPS, but if the GPS goes away, you've still got a totally reliable nav solution and platform.

Brett

 

[Gatordev]

I think it's a very credible concern, though, if GPS went away. Not as big a deal for the military in a macro level, but in general, it will cause all kinds of problems, especially after 2020 when everything on the civilian aviation side is pretty much switched over to it (again, macro, not the dude in his J-3).

Tactically, at least on the ASW side, I think people have become pretty dependent on GPS, but hopefully at least some of the knowledge on how to get around that stays in the fleet.

 

[Brett327]

True, but it's a pretty robust system. Even jamming it is ineffective for the most part. Short of some system-wide failure or coordinated multiple anti-satellite attacks, chances of GPS going away are fairly remote.

Brett

 

[helolumpy]

Tactically, at least on the ASW side, I think people have become pretty dependent on GPS, but hopefully at least some of the knowledge on how to get around that stays in the fleet.

I'm sure the same was thought when the last gen of H-2, H-3 and all the 60's came out with a video tactical display and we never had to learn to use Mo Boards to work an ASW problem.

It's the same with all technology, once it becomes standard, we seldomly train to operate without it so it becomes indispensable.

If the ship were to turn off TACAN, imagine how messed up we'd be today? Years ago, crews DF'd to find the ship and then landed without talking on the radio... We can't do that today!