Navy F/A-18s Collide - 2 Dead.

[zab1001]

Speculating isn't the best way to look at this specific situation. But if anybody wants to talk Aircrew Coordination (d.a.m.c.l.a.s.) it may make for some good posts.

By the way, what is being topgunish???

oiling up, puttin on some tight jeans and playing volleyball. don't forget to put your arm around your teammate a lot.

 

[Fly Navy]

oiling up, puttin on some tight jeans and playing volleyball. don't forget to put your arm around your teammate a lot.

Iceman - The Later Years: Hey, why don't we go over to the hotel room and shower... and dry off... and play some volleyball?

 

[TANGO 1]

Anyone can Monday morning quarter back these things. Anyone on this board who tries to analyze it and call it neglences or pilot error without the facts would be an idiot.

Training is dangerous, unfortunatly these things do happen. Being in a hornet sqd (as you claim) one would think you would no that, and be hesitant to sit here and try to get people to say they were ill trained, show boating or just being irresponsible.

what i mean is this. In times past, what has been the cause of such accidents. Well i am not getting anybody to say anything. I have not being in a squadron that has lost an aircraft. Too those who have been in such squadrons what has been the case.

Offcourse nobody ever claims they were ill trained or show boating.

 

[Punk]

what i mean is this. In times past, what has been the cause of such accidents. Well i am not getting anybody to say anything. I have not being in a squadron that has lost an aircraft. Too those who have been in such squadrons what has been the case.

Offcourse nobody ever claims they were ill trained or show boating.

its way to early to say anything

obviously the surviving pilot has the best take on this (was it during the merge, a yo-yo, etc)

ACM is dangerous, flying is dangerous, accidents happen

you can train all you want, but sometimes, **** happens

 

[STA-21-INTEL]

I am currently stationed with a hornet squadron at MCAS Beaufort, SC and, although I don't have any good info about this most recent crash, I can give some background about our string of incidents here. First, the two jets that went down about a year ago (USMC) were just off the coast and did indeed collide. Both crew safely recovered. The incident back in the early spring of this year was a jet from my squadron (USN) that suffered a probable (final investigation not concluded) mechanical failure resulting in forced loss of altitude. Pilot (an O-4) followed NATOPS and punched when prescribed. He was also recovered safely. The next incident was a jet (USMC) onboard USS HARRY S. TRUMAN off the Azores that basicly just vanished. I never read anywhere that they found any sign of the pilot after it went down. Then there was the jet (USMC) returning from a det to Denmark being flown by a Canadian exchange pilot crashed upon landing (no one I've talked to is real sure how) and died from injuries a couple days later.

In addition, my squadron was onboard USS ENTERPRISE for our recent deployment and as many of you are probably aware, we had an F-14 mid-air collision in which both jets (miraculously) made it back to the ship and landed safely. If you saw the jets, you know why I say miraculously. I haven't been in the service for all that long, but it seems to me that three mid-airs in a year (that I can think of) is a little high. Am I right?

 

[TANGO 1]

I am currently stationed with a hornet squadron at MCAS Beaufort, SC and, although I don't have any good info about this most recent crash, I can give some background about our string of incidents here. First, the two jets that went down about a year ago (USMC) were just off the coast and did indeed collide. Both crew safely recovered. The incident back in the early spring of this year was a jet from my squadron (USN) that suffered a probable (final investigation not concluded) mechanical failure resulting in forced loss of altitude. Pilot (an O-4) followed NATOPS and punched when prescribed. He was also recovered safely. The next incident was a jet (USMC) onboard USS HARRY S. TRUMAN off the Azores that basicly just vanished. I never read anywhere that they found any sign of the pilot after it went down. Then there was the jet (USMC) returning from a det to Denmark being flown by a Canadian exchange pilot crashed upon landing (no one I've talked to is real sure how) and died from injuries a couple days later.

In addition, my squadron was onboard USS ENTERPRISE for our recent deployment and as many of you are probably aware, we had an F-14 mid-air collision in which both jets (miraculously) made it back to the ship and landed safely. If you saw the jets, you know why I say miraculously. I haven't been in the service for all that long, but it seems to me that three mid-airs in a year (that I can think of) is a little high. Am I right?

Thanks alot for the reply. You guys at Beaufort must definitely know what those guys in California are going through right now, since you guys are just coming out of a string of incidents. I thought of the same thing, mid air collisions are not really funny. All this planes going at more than 350 knots atimes colliding, you can imagine what impact sounds like and then to have some people make it through is definitely amazing. It is funny how they always say they have a team investigating and you almost never hear any outcome when the whole thing is concluded or in most cases know body knows what caused it.

 

[Fly Navy]

Thanks alot for the reply. You guys at Beaufort must definitely know what those guys in California are going through right now, since you guys are just coming out of a string of incidents. I thought of the same thing, mid air collisions are not really funny. All this planes going at more than 350 knots atimes colliding, you can imagine what impact sounds like and then to have some people make it through is definitely amazing. It is funny how they always say they have a team investigating and you almost never hear any outcome when the whole thing is concluded or in most cases know body knows what caused it.

Look for the safety reports in your squadron. They may have them, if not they could probably get them. The news doesn't report the findings because, well, it's not "news" to them.

 

[TANGO 1]

I know they come up with something on the bulletin board every quarter, but then it just says how many aircrafts were lost during the quarter and what type of aircrafts, weather or not the aircrew survived. It never really says anything about what caused the accident.

 

[zab1001]

Thanks alot for the reply. You guys at Beaufort must definitely know what those guys in California are going through right now, since you guys are just coming out of a string of incidents. I thought of the same thing, mid air collisions are not really funny. All this planes going at more than 350 knots atimes colliding, you can imagine what impact sounds like and then to have some people make it through is definitely amazing. It is funny how they always say they have a team investigating and you almost never hear any outcome when the whole thing is concluded or in most cases know body knows what caused it.

"They always say they have a team investigating"....

I'm not sure if you mean to, but you sound as if you are doubting the system through which squadrons investigate mishaps. Every squadron, USN and USMC, has a designated team to initiate mishap investigations in a timely manner (read: ASAP) according to regulations. Results are made public, and are available simply by asking your NATOPS/SAFETY office for amplifying information. But the process takes time. I had a buddy die in an S-3 crash a few years back. After getting tired of the email speculations among our mutual friends, I simply asked our Pilot NATOPS officer to help me get the released accident report.

I agree, maintainers are often not kept in the loop as far as results/consequences of mishaps (one of the reasons the magazine Mech is made readily available is to help alleviate that problem), but you also have to realize that once the "reasons why" are released, aircrew review and discuss the event. Twice monthly, our squadron had a meeting where both Pilots and NFOs went over the official reports for mishaps in our platform across the fleet and then analyzed the chain of events.

 

[Fly Navy]

"They always say they have a team investigating"....

I'm not sure if you mean to, but you sound as if you are doubting the system through which squadrons investigate mishaps.

I think he more meant that they say a team in investigating, but no one ever reports the findings in the news. Like I said before, it's not "news".

 

[TANGO 1]

"They always say they have a team investigating"....

I'm not sure if you mean to, but you sound as if you are doubting the system through which squadrons investigate mishaps. Every squadron, USN and USMC, has a designated team to initiate mishap investigations in a timely manner (read: ASAP) according to regulations. Results are made public, and are available simply by asking your NATOPS/SAFETY office for amplifying information. But the process takes time. I had a buddy die in an S-3 crash a few years back. After getting tired of the email speculations among our mutual friends, I simply asked our Pilot NATOPS officer to help me get the released accident report.

I agree, maintainers are often not kept in the loop as far as results/consequences of mishaps (one of the reasons the magazine Mech is made readily available is to help alleviate that problem), but you also have to realize that once the "reasons why" are released, aircrew review and discuss the event. Twice monthly, our squadron had a meeting where both Pilots and NFOs went over the official reports for mishaps in our platform across the fleet and then analyzed the chain of events.

I agree that maintainers are left out of the loop and this would be a very good answer to my question. I have in couple times picked up the Mech and have found quiet some interesting things to learn. I think as an officer, the information is readly available to you whereas as an enlisted maintainer, you are always working around the shop with little or no time to read magazines such as Mech. Also not many people care to know about what happend to the pilot. So, i guess the information is there, but i will have to ask to get it.
I can remember when i newly checked into my sqdn and i was on night-shift and while waiting for the pilots to return, i picked up the Approach Magazine and started reading and i can remember clearly a Sgt. telling me to put it down and that it is a waste of my time. ( Just thought that was funny).

 

[STA-21-INTEL]

I'm in a slightly different boat. Being Intel, I pretty much have no choice but to hear about it! I normally read the investigation reports, both because I'm interested and becasue I more or less have too, but often these investigations take so long that by the time the report comes out, the general public has forgotten about the incident and it is no longer news worthy. Sad as it is, the possibillity of Michael Jackson fathering quadruplets ends up trumping the cause of death of a service member.

The point I was making was less how public the findings are made, and more the frequency these incidents seem to be occuring. Any aircrew have comments? Bad luck? High optempo from multiple recent deployments? Rushed training? Or maybe similar things have always happened and the crews have just been luckier (or better) in the past and survived (like the F-14 guys I mentioned previously from my recent deployment)?

Let me also include that I am in no way trying to put our aircrew under a microscope or "blame" anyone. I have total respect for what they do and acknowledge the hard work and dedication it takes. Very few individuals are up to the challenge and I support them all however I can.