It IS a fleet reality. HSC-8 and HSC-25 have armed helo capability, with more on the way.
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Navy Helos and support to Special Operations
- Thread starter torpedo0126
- Start date
It IS a fleet reality. HSC-8 and HSC-25 have armed helo capability, with more on the way.
To what phrog was asking: yes we have hover cues.
I think however that our definitions of what a "steep" approach is are a bit different. We're taught that an "apparent" angle of 30 is normal, 45 is steep and 10 is shallow. Obviously, those are points to deviate from. The key is the "apparent" comment. Realistically, they are much shallower than that. I actually set up a real 45 degree approach via nav system and it's essentially a hovering manuever.
As to the "steep" RVL, when I teach my new co-pilots to perform the manuever, I tell them that they should be able to see the touch down point, so hold it just barely above the glareshield. I don't know what the landing limits on the Navy style tail wheel, but I usually touchdown maybe 10-12 degrees nose up with about 3-5 kts of ground speed. These are estimates, as I'm focusing totally on the cues at touchdown.
I tend to use the shallower approach angle when I have a bit of smooth ground where I can roll on (maybe 10-15 kts) and then I can keep the cloud completely aft of the cockpit. But as Stearman alluded to, this can royally screw anyone trying to land behind you, even if you land one at a time that cloud can linger for a long while.
I think however that our definitions of what a "steep" approach is are a bit different. We're taught that an "apparent" angle of 30 is normal, 45 is steep and 10 is shallow. Obviously, those are points to deviate from. The key is the "apparent" comment. Realistically, they are much shallower than that. I actually set up a real 45 degree approach via nav system and it's essentially a hovering manuever.
As to the "steep" RVL, when I teach my new co-pilots to perform the manuever, I tell them that they should be able to see the touch down point, so hold it just barely above the glareshield. I don't know what the landing limits on the Navy style tail wheel, but I usually touchdown maybe 10-12 degrees nose up with about 3-5 kts of ground speed. These are estimates, as I'm focusing totally on the cues at touchdown.
I tend to use the shallower approach angle when I have a bit of smooth ground where I can roll on (maybe 10-15 kts) and then I can keep the cloud completely aft of the cockpit. But as Stearman alluded to, this can royally screw anyone trying to land behind you, even if you land one at a time that cloud can linger for a long while.
Some (maybe most or all) of the navy helo communities' SOP/maneuver description guide/equivalent governing instructions also describe some combination of distance along the ground vs AGL in describing the short final phase of the maneuver. (run on sentence... breathe now) Obviously one guy's 30 degree sight picture might not be the same as what the other guy thinks is 30 degrees, but during training straightaway is pretty hard to mess up when you have the thousand foot markers next to the runway and the radalt (usually) doesn't lie.
That's the gold standard I use for steep approaches (not necessarily RVL).
This was back in the early 80's - there was a significant difference between the east coast and west coast. What the east coast did was not just "in house" - these were coordinated training exercises with the other squadrons in the airwing (i.e. A-7s and A-6s providing close air support). The intent was not to do the type of missions that you guys are training for and doing now, it was more to be able to pick someone up when there was minimal potential for encountering the enemy. (Remember - no armor or weapons at all on the H-3s.) The east coast air wings were just more realistic that there was potential for having to do this for real, probably because they actually occasionally flew combat missions (i.e. the Freedom of Navigation ops in the Gulf of Sidra, the airstrikes on Lebanon, the airstrike on Libya, Granada - where an H-3 did an actual combat rescue of about 15 Rangers off of a beach). The west coast airwings at that time seemed to have a "head-in-the-sand" approach.
My post was more a comment on how much better that issue seems to be handled now, for obvious reasons, and how unprepared Navy Air was in a lot of ways 20-25 years ago.
One of my favorite subjects...at Fallon last summer before deploying
Photos by HJ
The only problem from the navy perspective is the lack of ASW capability. Sadly, helos operating in the HSL role need that "jack of all trades" ability.
It always drives me a tad nuts when we do our ATFP training flights and the scenario involves the escort of an LHD and no one talks about the MEU.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
What if you have to escort them from Norfolk to Onslow Bay? Post Onslow Bay... Yeah, that's what the Cobras/Hueys/Harriers are for.
It's more just the limits of some folks pre-knowledge.
The AH-64N concept was a result of the Tanker Wars in the '80s and the idea that you could use the LHA and ACE as a sort of "sea control ship/CAG Light" in confined waters. Plus, it was expected the Whiskey Cobra was on its last legs and would have to be replaced soon.
It's still not the worst idea in the world, but of course, it's never going to happen now. If you look at the date on that article (1989), it was in the optimistic days before we realized that the future was doing-more-with-less and seeing what you could bolt on to old designs.
It's still not the worst idea in the world, but of course, it's never going to happen now. If you look at the date on that article (1989), it was in the optimistic days before we realized that the future was doing-more-with-less and seeing what you could bolt on to old designs.
Delete the gun .... from a Gunship. I would been screaming and throwing things at the engineer that proposed that revision. 30mm is about the most useful weapon on the Apache. Yeah big missiles are great but you cant shoot a hellfire at everything.