I’m not violating article 88. Our friend claiming the high ground as an officer has done it frequently here and presumably more frequently in less public forums.
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Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October
- Thread starter snake020
- Start date
Cool. Just make sure you’re watching the 2016 updates to the ucmj article 2(a)(3) while you tread your line. I’m sure you’ll be fine.
That is your opinion, as is “orange man bad”. Whether either one constitutes contempt towards officials under article 88 is a legal matter. Strictly interpreted as you have done, I doubt there are many of us who would be completely without culpability. That said, the threshold for legal action under UCMJ seems to be higher than posting opinions on an Internet forum, at least to the level we typically see here at AW.
Holy shit! Well, let me break it down for you. Can't believe I'm having to so this for an O-6 CO, but here we go. According to the UCMJ, any order you give is presumed to be lawful unless and until a judge decides otherwise, and one disobeys it "at their peril". So you ordering someone to take their Trump bumper sticker off their car is entirely lawful until and unless a judge says otherwise. Likewise for any other order you give, no matter how obviously it restricts a constitutional right. Generally, orders can even restrict constitutional rights, there just must be a military necessity for the order.
So, all the examples I gave are lawful. An example of a clearly unlawful order would be to murder someone.
You're right, I am confused about the point you made earlier. Because when I said the same damn thing you are right now (that one can disobey orders but they will face consequences), you accused me of pretending to do this officer thing. Glad to hear we agree and that you were just being an asshole for the fun of it.
This seems to be proof you're either just trolling or completely out of touch with reality. You quoted the number of people current unvaccinated in NAE, then I referenced the number of currently unvaccinated in the military as a whole, and you say it's bizarre I even post that link and my thinking is in disarray? For using the same metric you used, which is the best metric we currently have?
I contend that an awful lot of the angst surrounding this pandemic comes from how people read into statistics, and what they feel they “know” from someone else’s data.
“…lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
“…lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
Indeed. There is an entire section in the MCM that covers lawfulness or orders. I recommend you read it… all of it.
No, I quoted the number of people who have declared that they will refuse. Are you even reading what I post here? You have repeatedly misinterpreted, misconstrued, or just failed to comprehend basic information.
No no, an officer must strictly obey all lawful orders or they aren’t fit to wear the uniform. We were just told that.
So how are the examples I gave not lawful orders, exactly? Very curious what I'm missing.
And your post with "the NAE numbers" was not at all clear that you were quoting numbers of people who said they aren't getting the vax by the deadline. Didn't even know that was a thing people were doing, and I'm still doubtful, as I imagine those people are mostly submitting waivers that will be denied.
But regardless, can you explain how me quoting the number of people military wide who are not yet vaxed is irrelevant to the number of people who will not do so by the deadline? Further, can you explain how me saying thousands of people might ultimately refuse seems way off base to you when hundreds of thousands are currently unvaccinated? Or perhaps you should stop searching so hard for any defense to my arguments that you keep making a fool of yourself.
ABMD
Bullets don't fly without Supply
You're right and it's a bad look for Christians (of any denomination). What testimony are they sending? Usually, in some of these cases those beliefs weren't that sincere to begin with. The presence of these hypocrites doesn't negate the Christian faith (in fact one could argue it actually supports the presence of a divine moral law giver).
Not going to dive deep into religion on a web forum, but there are also plenty of hypocrites that aren't religious.
They're not lawful orders because they're illegal and I have no authority to order someone to do something that isn't... lawful. Did you bother to read the MCM? It's spelled out quite clearly. This is not a difficult concept, but I do sense your frustration.
Instead of continuing down this rabbit hole, you might consider the possibility that someone who has been doing this for 31+ years, and has had several formal schools taught by real live JAGs covering this material, and have had the responsibility of actually wielding Art. 15 authority, just might have a better working knowledge of this material than a guy on his first shore tour biding his time until his MSR is up. Just a thought.
Uhhh, that's pretty much verbatim what I said...
Obviously the number of people who haven't yet been vaccinated is going to be in the thousands, as detailed in the WaPo story you posted. Did you read anything other than the headline? How you could confuse a number as small as 51 with the overall unvaccinated number is baffling to me, but you've been quite confused about a lot of things in this thread. Wondering what's up with that.
So please enlighten me. How is ordering someone to take a bumper sticker off their car against the law? What law would they be breaking by taking a bumper sticker off their own car? Vandalism? You're making no sense. If you have no military necessity for the order then a court might rule it unconstitutional, but that is a different matter and proves my point that a lawful order can go against the constitution. This is why I am not deferring to your experience at all. Despite your assumptions to the contrary, I've been to legal school as well and worked as the legal O at 3 commands now. I am well past my MSR and thank God will be out soon. Your assertions on all this make it clear you have no idea what you're talking about, and now you're trying to use your experience as a cover for your ignorance. Not impressed.
Your 51 number for declared vax refusers in the NAE is so irrelevant to figuring out how many will ultimately refuse the vax across the military as a whole. Do you really think that guessing thousands will ultimately refuse the vax when hundreds of thousands have refused it thus far is an unreasonable extrapolation?
Lord knows I've been trying. Perhaps the aforementioned idiom about the pig is the best course of action here. That said, I do really like the watercolor version of this meme, so on that front, this thread hasn't been a total waste.
There you go. Finally cornered you enough you've followed your buddy's lead and will try to save face. I'll make you a deal... You don't attack my character for no reason in the future, and I won't embarass you on here.
Please don’t confuse my lack of engagement with ‘saving face’. Think about the idiom/analogy some more.
