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Navy Sonar useage Banned in California

The U.S. Navy was barred Aug. 6 from using an ear-splitting sonar in upcoming war games off the California coast alleged to be harmful to whales and other marine life.

See Link for rest of story.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2952276&C=america


Anyone know if this means airdropped stuff from P-3's etc... as well or just surface and submarines?


How is it that the Navy can't just tell them to go screw themselves since they list it is a matter of National Security?
 

VetteMuscle427

is out to lunch.
None
What I'm wondering... is how a judge can dictate what we do in international waters? Last I remembered... the Sierra Club wasn't in my chain of command...
 

Goober

Professional Javelin Catcher
None
All bets are off in a shooting war. May be "international waters," but it's still the U.S. Exclusive Economic Zone and under federal jurisdiction.

Side note, CAPT May is a former VAW skipper. Super guy.
 

pennst8

Next guy to ask about thumbdrives gets shot.
Contributor
As A4s is so fond of saying... I weep for the future. This is absolutely fvckin' retarded.

Pave the whales.
 

OldNavy

Registered User
All bets are off in a shooting war. May be "international waters," but it's still the U.S. Exclusive Economic Zone and under federal jurisdiction.

Side note, CAPT May is a former VAW skipper. Super guy.

Concur.

He was very generous to us poor, underpaid "E's" at Ricks and Sloppy Joes when the RAG went to Key West for FCLPs
 

Skippy

Now with 27% less bullshit.
I think CAPT May's looking at this the wrong way. Let's train the whales to drop Mk-48's and everyone can go home happy.

What bothers me most about this is that the damage to the environment is "certain," but not explicit--how many whales/dolphins/mammals/etc are really going to be harmed by this? Vice how much will the sonar techs lose their ability to protect the country?
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I think CAPT May's looking at this the wrong way. Let's train the whales to drop Mk-48's and everyone can go home happy.

What bothers me most about this is that the damage to the environment is "certain," but not explicit--how many whales/dolphins/mammals/etc are really going to be harmed by this? Vice how much will the sonar techs lose their ability to protect the country?

There's been some pretty valid studies proving that whales tend to get disoriented and decide to take a stroll on the beach. There was quite a to-do about this in the Bahamas some years ago.

What's frustrating about the article is that it really isn't that well researched (surprise, surprise). The environmentalists can say there's no procedures in place, but I can tell you first hand there are. It is a HUGE deal in Hawaii in the winter when all the whales are humping and making noise. A big effort is made not to interfere as best as possible. The argument shouldn't be: is the Navy doing anything, but perhaps instead, are they doing enough.

The answer may be yes or no, depending on your point of view. So how far is the exclusionary zone? 100 miles? Because there's several ranges that are at least 40 miles out and a couple that's not even in our country.
 

RHPF

Active Member
pilot
Contributor
Remember the same thing happening last year with Hawaii? If I recall correctly... that was overturned eventually.
Liberals make me laugh because they see life as if it were a fairy tale. If it was up to them we would have no military, and especially no guns for citizens. Unfortunately, that will not work as other countries would like to take our freedoms, and if given a chance, to chip away at our very high standard quality of life. These are the same people complaining about the military's wasteful use of resources (jet fuel, etc). I surely didn't see them crying about the waste of JET-A when Mr. Gore was globe trotting this past year.
 

Hozer

Jobu needs a refill!
None
Contributor
It's not just Crazy Cali. The FACSFAC's also have an aggressive reporting process for Northern Right Whales on the East Coast with them reporting (no shit) the visuals into GCCS-M with follow-ups to Second Fleet FOTC.
You see whales out in your part of the warning area, no ordnance, no PACFIRES, no sonar, no nothing.

Now, a pod of dolphin? Well, there was this time I had 4 Rockeye's that we just had to get rid of and....
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Funny because my buddy the Attack Boat Bubble head was telling me all about the fact that Dolphins actually talk to the sonar (both passive and active). He said it pissed the Sonar guys off.
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
For those that aren't familiar, we have both passive and active sonobuoys/systems. Of course this article is addressing the use of active sonar systems, but I am surprised that it didn't mention any specifics (or maybe not surprised). I would imagine that this is specifically against Medium Frequency Active (MFA) sonar systems, primarily used on surface warships. As a former exercise officer, I can definitely validate Gatordev's comments, the amount of sonar energy put into the water is ALWAYS taken into account while setting up for training and exercises, especially with multiple warships, submarines and P3s going active. Computer assessment software is used to that compares location, migratory patterns, energy and frequencies used, and you can assess impact and if it is necessary to set up ping schedules for participants.

As the OCE (Officer Conducting Exercise), you are responsible for running an analysis of time and energy put into the water column by various systems (LFA, MFA, HFA, EER, etc). The current rules that are in place are followed, and the appropriate control measures, and marine mammal mitigation are used, but you still have civic organizations that continue to seek to abolish all use of active systems that the warfighter needs. Targets continue to have lower source levels (quieter), and ASW as a whole is working towards improved systems to search, localize and track, sometimes in very difficult environments (littoral, sea states, shipping, etc).

In the end, there are different approvals out there that govern our actions, and are built into our CONOPs and are in place at the unit level (marine mammal lookout anyone?). We definitely honor host nation/international EEZs, fishing rights are a huge deal both with our country and others (Japan and Australia). Other systems, such as LFA, have their seperate approvals in place.

As mentioned, during real world operations all bets are off, and use of these systems are not constrained. All in all, a moot point, we have been dealing this for quite awhile, and as long as these systems aren't banned outright, the Navy will continue to work within the guidelines, and get training done.
 
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