Navy Sonar useage Banned in California

[Flash]

What I'm wondering... is how a judge can dictate what we do in international waters? Last I remembered... the Sierra Club wasn't in my chain of command...

It is a US warship, therefore US laws apply to it.......

 

[Hozer]

For those that aren't familiar, we have both passive and active sonobuoys/systems. Of course this article is addressing the use of active sonar systems, but I am surprised that it didn't mention any specifics (or maybe not surprised). I would imagine that this is specifically against Medium Frequency Active (MFA) sonar systems, primarily used on surface warships. As a former exercise officer, I can definitely validate Gatordev's comments, the amount of sonar energy put into the water is ALWAYS taken into account while setting up for training and exercises, especially with multiple warships, submarines and P3s going active. Computer assessment software is used to that compares location, migratory patterns, energy and frequencies used, and you can assess impact and if it is necessary to set up ping schedules for participants.

As the OCE (Officer Conducting Exercise), you are responsible for running an analysis of time and energy put into the water column by various systems (LFA, MFA, HFA, EER, etc). The current rules that are in place are followed, and the appropriate control measures, and marine mammal mitigation are used, but you still have civic organizations that continue to seek to abolish all use of active systems that the warfighter needs. Targets continue to have lower source levels (quieter), and ASW as a whole is working towards improved systems to search, localize and track, sometimes in very difficult environments (littoral, sea states, shipping, etc).

In the end, there are different approvals out there that govern our actions, and are built into our CONOPs and are in place at the unit level (marine mammal lookout anyone?). We definitely honor host nation/international EEZs, fishing rights are a huge deal both with our country and others (Japan and Australia). Other systems, such as LFA, have their seperate approvals in place.

As mentioned, during real world operations all bets are off, and use of these systems are not constrained. All in all, a moot point, we have been dealing this for quite awhile, and as long as these systems aren't banned outright, the Navy will continue to work within the guidelines, and get training done.

Solid post. I will also add that the Navy regularly attends Marine Mammal conferences hosted by "granola" organizations. The Navy is generally very forthcoming with information and is armed with copious amounts of data which blows away the nay-sayers. One of the more ironic outcomes is that the Navy then qualifies for non-DoD funding for mammal mitigation programs. So, we play their game too and cut into their funding sources. Beautiful.

 

[Morgan81]

What's frustrating about the article is that it really isn't that well researched (surprise, surprise).

To go further with this, how much wildlife is out there and what exactly does the active sonar do to it? If it's a significant upheveal to massive (or rare) amounts of underwater life, fine, I can see not wanting to hurt the little buggers, but if it's just an annoyance to them, come on.
I know it's asking a lot, but some scientific facts can go a long way.

 

[cisforsmasher]

I am pretty sure the sonar in question is the Low Frequency Active Sonar. You can learn more at http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/lfa.htm . "very intense sound in the range of 235 dB." That is basically an explosion underwater. Yes, it is very effective, but you can understand why other mammals might get disoriented. Just think about what happens when a flashbang goes off in a room. Sensory overload leads to temporary disorientation. I do not know why whales cannot recover from it but apparently some can't recage their internal gyro.

 

[Morgan81]

I am pretty sure the sonar in question is the Low Frequency Active Sonar. You can learn more at http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/lfa.htm . "very intense sound in the range of 235 dB." That is basically an explosion underwater. Yes, it is very effective, but you can understand why other mammals might get disoriented. Just think about what happens when a flashbang goes off in a room. Sensory overload leads to temporary disorientation. I do not know why whales cannot recover from it but apparently some can't recage their internal gyro.

Thanks for the info. Would of been nice to see that in the article, that's all.

 

[webmaster]

I am pretty sure the sonar in question is the Low Frequency Active Sonar. You can learn more at http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/lfa.htm . "very intense sound in the range of 235 dB." That is basically an explosion underwater. Yes, it is very effective, but you can understand why other mammals might get disoriented. Just think about what happens when a flashbang goes off in a room. Sensory overload leads to temporary disorientation. I do not know why whales cannot recover from it but apparently some can't recage their internal gyro.

Blah, I have never cared for the FAS website or information, if you want to read up on the system:

http://www.surtass-lfa-eis.com

Specifically, SURTASS LFA uses a separate passive monitoring system HF/M3 that continually monitors the local area for marine mammals. Primarily you are concerned with the immediate blast zone, as db rapidly falls off. You can read more about the mitigation measures, and db limitations imposed when operating in the vicinity of shorelines, migration and diving areas, here: http://www.surtass-lfa-eis.com/Measures/index.htm

 

[Gatordev]

To go further with this, how much wildlife is out there and what exactly does the active sonar do to it? If it's a significant upheveal to massive (or rare) amounts of underwater life, fine, I can see not wanting to hurt the little buggers, but if it's just an annoyance to them, come on.
I know it's asking a lot, but some scientific facts can go a long way.

The Wright Pilot whales that Hozer mentions on the east coast are a huge deal, I think because they're endangered. When we transited up from Panama to Mayport, we had to have a huge brief on what happens if anyone spots one (basically all things stop, a report is generated, and you go the other way). And we weren't even flying/ASW-ing, just transiting up the straits.

Other mammals like the Humpback or Blue (I can't remember what was around everywhere in HI) are just protected in general, so it's basically a see and avoid, both w/ airframe as well as ordnance (buoys, bullets, and ship's sonar).

It is a US warship, therefore US laws apply to it.......

Well, wouldn't that mean we can't dump garbage then? Yes, I know what your answer will be, but I couldn't resist.

 

[Dingobat]

Now, a pod of dolphin? Well, there was this time I had 4 Rockeye's that we just had to get rid of and....

Did you try and blow up a bunch of dolphins with CBU Mark 20 Rockeye II's? Thats not very nice

 

[raptor10]

Navy can use sonar again!!!

 

[kevkwondo08]

Remember the same thing happening last year with Hawaii? If I recall correctly... that was overturned eventually.
Liberals make me laugh because they see life as if it were a fairy tale. If it was up to them we would have no military, and especially no guns for citizens. Unfortunately, that will not work as other countries would like to take our freedoms, and if given a chance, to chip away at our very high standard quality of life. These are the same people complaining about the military's wasteful use of resources (jet fuel, etc). I surely didn't see them crying about the waste of JET-A when Mr. Gore was globe trotting this past year.

This is why I weep for America. Republicans see the world in black and white, and refuse to see the gray areas. I challenge you to name a country that is actively planning to take our freedoms. Sure, Iran and North Korea would like to knock us down a peg, but I doubt that they've got an anti-habeas corpus plan. And also, the general quality of life is better in Northern and Western Europe than it is here in the US. As a gun owner, I think it's not cool that the Democrats want to ban guns, but at the same time, owning fully automatic firearms is completely ridiculous and unneccessary. Oh, and last time I checked the planks of the Democratic party, I don't remember seeing any proposals for disbanding the military. In this day and age, the only countries where that is really a viable option are the Vatican, San Marino, and a few other microstates. Even though I support the military, one must admit that war and the maintaining of military forces is a massive waste of resources that could be used on cool things like space exploration. Unfortunately, humans are innately violent and distrustful, and so that's just a pipe dream.

P.S. Forgive my ignorance, but why can't the military just test further out to sea?

 

[pennst8]

^ Troll...

You clearly live in a bubble... the profound stupidity of your post... i'm at a loss for words here.

"I weep for the future".

 

[Flash]

Words.......

Uhhh, what?

 

[cisforsmasher]

did kevkwondo get banned for saying that?

edit: ahh now I saw the rest of his filth, good call

 

[BackOrdered]

did kevkwondo get banned for saying that?

edit: ahh now I saw the rest of his filth, good call

Yeah you pretty much know that once an account reads banned on AW, their older posts are a treasure trove of free entertainment.

 

[skim]

This is why I weep for America. Republicans see the world in black and white, and refuse to see the gray areas. I challenge you to name a country that is actively planning to take our freedoms. Sure, Iran and North Korea would like to knock us down a peg, but I doubt that they've got an anti-habeas corpus plan. And also, the general quality of life is better in Northern and Western Europe than it is here in the US. As a gun owner, I think it's not cool that the Democrats want to ban guns, but at the same time, owning fully automatic firearms is completely ridiculous and unneccessary. Oh, and last time I checked the planks of the Democratic party, I don't remember seeing any proposals for disbanding the military. In this day and age, the only countries where that is really a viable option are the Vatican, San Marino, and a few other microstates. Even though I support the military, one must admit that war and the maintaining of military forces is a massive waste of resources that could be used on cool things like space exploration. Unfortunately, humans are innately violent and distrustful, and so that's just a pipe dream.

P.S. Forgive my ignorance, but why can't the military just test further out to sea?

So you've taken a U.S. government class in high school, listened to a Green Day album and watched an episode of Star Trek. Yeah, I see you know it all. I think this post is why I weep for America, or at least for kids like you....