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need NROTC advice

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beau

Registered User
I think the problem with a lot of incoming freshman on Scholarship is that most of the time half of them quit before their sophmore year. I think the trend is happening is becasue people who want to be there are getting the 3 year and also signing the commitment to be a Naval Officer (right now on the 4 year plan you are not required to sign an oath before your sophmore year.....aka making your freshman year a freebee so to speak to decide whether you want to be an Officer or not). I always see it as a major waste....but at the same time We have to Recruit people and sometimes that means letting them go if they dont want to be there. I dont think the military should be a prison to a young dumb freshman in college. I mean I think a lot of growing up and mind changing goes on that first year....if they cant hack it...let them go.

Of course the other problem with NROTC is how far it is from how things are done (or so I've heard being only in the training command myself). Most all of the prior enlisted guys in my class always were spiting that out on us naive non priors. So these youngin freshman dont get a taste of the Fleet until summer cruise......maybe we need a pre-freshman cruise.........and Bootcamp..(thats my personal option.....I mean..How bad do you want to be here??? hell the E-dogs have to do it ....why not US?)
 

redmidgrl

livin' the dream
Contributor
As far as I know, several units have an "orientation" before Freshman year for all Scholarship and College Program Midshipman Candidates. The purpose of our indoctrination was simply to weed out the weak ones, the ones who would realize that this was not what they truly wanted, and act as a humbling experience for those of us who thought we were hot **** after getting into college and winning the ROTC scholarship. I have no basis for comparison for other units, but our orientation was held at MCB Quantico, and run by the Marines who had just completed OCS. It certainly was not a "welcome to our Unit - picnic." But the truth is, the Navy, like the other services must sometimes offer incentives for joining, and while it may be a waste in some cases, hopefully only the best of the best will actually make it out to the fleet. Those are the ones with the heart and true desire to be Naval Officers.
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Our Freshman Oreientation program is NOT designed to "weed out" the weak, although, it is a side effect of the orientation process. We used our MOI and AMOI as a filter. They have very persuasive arguments for those that don't belong. :)

ea6bflyr

redmidgrl said:
As far as I know, several units have an "orientation" before Freshman year for all Scholarship and College Program Midshipman Candidates. The purpose of our indoctrination was simply to weed out the weak ones, the ones who would realize that this was not what they truly wanted, and act as a humbling experience for those of us who thought we were hot **** after getting into college and winning the ROTC scholarship.
 

USN99

USN99
None
If you all will allow me to jump back in here

beau said:
I think the problem with a lot of incoming freshman on Scholarship is that most of the time half of them quit before their sophmore year.

I think a comparison to the USNA regarding the ability of freshman to have their minds oriented toward being an officer might be useful. The USNA Midn is motivated by not only the prestige of attending a top college, is likely not at all motivated by the economic support he'll receive for four years, but is very likely motivated by the idea of being a naval officer. That Midn is typically coming out of high school. I think we would find that for every 100 that commence Plebe Summer, probably 90-92 will graduate four years later. Of the 8-10 that don't graduate, probably 6 in every 100 don't finish the freshman year. Even if these stats are a bit off, they represent pretty good indicators that those doing the selecting from the pool of applicants (even when distributed by state) are doing a very good job of finding suitable high school graduates who will complete the program.

If the NROTC Program is detecting an abnormal amount of freshman quitting and are making a gradual shift to awarding 3 year scholarships, then I would assert that those doing the selecting of high school freshman are just not doing as good a job as they could in screening applicants. The high school freshman applying for the NROTC Scholarship program is probably motivated toward the Navy and becoming an officer, doesn't realize that the economic support just is not what it could or should be, and is content that the university they have selected is a good one. As I said earlier, the Navy knows how to screen and select what they are looking for if they want to. If the NROTC Program is awarding 4 year scholarships and seeing too many freshman quit, then the selection process is not as good as it should be. Put another way, if across all the NROTC units the freshman drop-out rate is in double digit percentages, then the problem is the selection process. If not, then picking up a non-scholarship Midn merely fills the vacancy. Nothing wrong with that.

The USNA Midn can elect to withdraw before the commencement of their Junior Year. They likely will have all their costs converted to a student loan or face some (small) risk of the Secretary of the Navy placing them on active-duty as an E-something. So the option to quit before the commencement of the junior year is not a persuasive argument for the NROTC to start shifting to 3 year scholarships.

I have also wondered about the utility of something like an "IndocTraMid" as the first summer cruise in lieu of CORTRAMID. A 4-6 week IndocTraMid akin to Plebe Summer/Boot Camp held before the freshman academic year for NROTC Midn would not be out of the ordinary. But the scheduling, logistics, and costs of getting this off the ground would probably not attract any interest at CNET. However, expanding CORTRAMID to 8 weeks and boosting the time spent on what might be termed "Basic Midn Training" or "General Military Training", under the instruction of Marine NCOs, with half the time spent at Pendleton and Lejeune perhaps, might serve as an affordable surrogate for a separate Plebe-like summer. And if it did serve to weed out those not truly interested in becoming Navy/Marine Officers then the only loss to the Navy was two semesters of scholarship and the pittance given for the stipend and books.

I remain convinced that the NROTC Program needs to show its Midn that the Program is designed to fully focus the attention of the Midn on becoming a Navy/Marine Officer. The NROTC Program should be as all encompassing as it can be within the confines of the civilian academic calendar. The way the program seems to be constructed now, NROTC Midn are students who happen to be Midn. It should be the other way around. In other words, the Midn is a Midn first and a student also. To have a commissioning program that is much more encompassing, the economic supports have to allow the Midn to be a full-time Midn/student and not have to be distracted by a second job. That is why I think that it would not be at all unreasonable to grant to each Midn, either from day one or, not later than the commencement of the junior year, an amount that equals an average room and board cost at their respective university. Moreover, the stipend needs to get into the 20-30% of an Ensign's basepay. These are truly insignificant amounts but they would pay-off in the effectiveness of the program writ large by demonstrating to that high school graduate that the Navy is going to bring them "in" and develop them as officers if they make the grade. The economic supports will be sufficient to keep them focused on making the grade and demonstrate that they are "in" and not some sort of after thought and step child. As ludicrious as it sounds now, there was a time (decades ago) when NROTC literature actually implied that the stipend was designed so Midn would not have to seek outside sources of income. In hindsight, that was a "crock".
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
USN99 said:
The USNA Midn can elect to withdraw before the commencement of their Junior Year. They likely will have all their costs converted to a student loan or face some (small) risk of the Secretary of the Navy placing them on active-duty as an E-something. So the option to quit before the commencement of the junior year is not a persuasive argument for the NROTC to start shifting to 3 year scholarships.


If I am reading this paragraph correctly, and if the policy has not changed, USNA MIDN who elect to leave the academy prior to the first day of academic classes of their Junior year incur no cost or obligation in any form to the Navy. Beginning on the first day of academic classes, the MIDN incur financial and/or enlistment obligations at the distrection of DON.
This phenomenon is celebrated by the new juniors every year on their "2 for 7" night. They have completed 2 years in the Navy, and have a min of 7 to go. (2 more as MIDN, and then 5 as commissioned officers.)
 

USN99

USN99
None
The residual obligation

I think if USNA Mids drop out before junior year, their obligation may take the form of a student load but again, that is probably at the discretion of SecNav.

If they drop during Plebe Summer, there is no residual obligation. I suspect there is a lot of "case-by-case" going on with each USNA Mid who drops and precisely when and why they do. But generally speaking, no harm, no foul if they drop before junior year.
 

beau

Registered User
Well another problem I see with orientation (at least from what I saw) was how it changed from one CO to another. Nothing was written in stone for a process of orientation, it was just breifed ever year and executed. The problem comes when each CO gets an Idea of how things should be vise having a guide telling him how it should be. At my particular unit I saw Orientation go from a Boot camp style (only 5 days long)....to a party and picnic attitude (even less at 3 days). Though i though it should have been at least two weeks long (as some other NROTC units do), the boot camp style was ten times more motivating for the freshman student coming it. For me and my other forth classers (freshman) it build a bond with us and we stuck together throughout our freshman year as a team. It also taught us to respect our more senior midshipman becasue "they had done this too".

I personally thing using the lesser orientation style makes the freshman not want to be there as much.....the ones who were hardcore and looking to get "beat up" on think it is lame...and on the other end you have the Whiners now complain about having their time wasted...when if they had a "Real" orientation they would just shut up an realize it was all a game because everyone else had to do it their freshman year.

The sad thing was that some of the CO's were scared to do the "boot camp" thing because they though some one might get hurt and sue. If there was a good plan, with some limitiation.....the chances of someone getting hurt are minimal.

This one subject really pissed me off about NROTC when I was a mid. Everything in a Midn's mind starts at orientation....one of the most important Ideas our program was missing

One last thing....the more senior you get the more chill you should become and really learn to mentor the Freshman when they come it.......take them in.....throw them a party or two.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
beau said:
One last thing....the more senior you get the more chill you should become and really learn to mentor the Freshman when they come it.......take them in.....throw them a party or two.

somethings got to be done to get them to stop saying sir to everything they see.
 

Crowbar

New Member
None
beau said:
The sad thing was that some of the CO's were scared to do the "boot camp" thing because they though some one might get hurt and sue. If there was a good plan, with some limitiation.....the chances of someone getting hurt are minimal.

I agree, the purpose of the orientation isn't to weed people out. But there's nothing wrong with being hard on people and demanding a lot from them.

Last year I ran the training for our orientation, and our restrictions from the CO were pretty much "Don't haze anybody." We didn't even come close, but by God we were rough on people. Amazingly, out of 30+ new freshmen, only 1 quit that week. It wasn't boot camp but the platoon staffs and I were demanding and crushed people who weren't trying. After that week and into the school year, we were just as demanding, but not so much into the 'crushing'...more into 'mentoring' when somebody needed it.

When done right, F.O. can help set students up for what they need to learn over the next four years. It's not hard by any means. Some people might think it is, but I think they eventually come to realize it's not. Anyway, I started typing this essentially to agree with what beau said and now I've droned on and on for a while so I think I'll just stop.
 

BurbPunk

Registered User
What exactly is done at orientation? I've heard that the one for George Washington is done at Quantico. How much would 4 years of Marine JROTC help?
 

NozeMan

Are you threatening me?
pilot
Super Moderator
Haha....jrotc.....when you go to orientation, don't even mention jrotc. In fact, don't ever mention jrotc experiences EVER in NROTC.
 

redmidgrl

livin' the dream
Contributor
We had a Marine Option come in with 4 years of Marine JROTC. Keyword: had. From what I've seen, if anything, JROTC provides bad habits, and a better-than-everyone-else attitude. Nozeman's right, don't tell them you were CAP or JROTC... you will never hear the end of it.

Our (GW's) orientation is hardcore and at Quantico--right at OCS--it's a great time if you come in with an open mind and the heart for it. Being able to run helps too... ;-)

LG
 

snizo

Supply Officer
Agree with Noze about never mentioning JROTC.

Crowbar ... "the purpose isn't to weed people out" but "only one quit!" - sure you believe it wasn't to try and get rid of people? The purpose is to prepare people for NROTC. I agree that it should be conducted under some pretty intense pressure, but there is a fine line - and ROTC mids are not the ones to decide when something crosses it.

Considering what I've heard about what goes on at these orientations, I can understand COs being timid about them. All it would take is for one person to get hurt and God help NROTC units across the nation because I assure you - the full wrath of Congress is coming down and heads are going to roll. No senator will ever want to explain why one of his constituents was hurt as a college student by members of the military during training. I know its pretty unlikely (so stop worrying, pre-freshmen, it isn't that bad), but everyone would be ****ed if it did...
 

Crowbar

New Member
None
snizo said:
"the purpose isn't to weed people out" but "only one quit!" - sure you believe it wasn't to try and get rid of people?

That was meant in the way that we didn't have a 50% attrition rate during orientation. I was happy nobody else quit before giving the program a chance.
 
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