New FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules

[HAL Pilot]

Speaking of pilot factories - with the new (in two years) crew rest rules and the general consensus that more pilots will be hired, how do you guys think that will happen? More hires directly to the majors? More "upgrades" from regionals - and ensuing increase in regional hiring? Do you think hiring standards will suffer even further?

Same as it is today, just more. If you have the qualifications, direct to the majors else to the regionals.

 

[wink]

I don't discount your experience or perspective, but I do suspect that your point my be a bit idealistic. A lot of these kids emerge from aviation factories with shit tons of debt and aren't going to make some of the mature decisions you alluded to.

Doctors lawyers and others hit the job market with as much or more debt. Do they take jobs in cities or put themselves in situations they can't afford, or would cause them to malpractice? You are right that some of these young people lack experience, and even maturity. But I don't know how much real experience or training it takes to know that if you are nodding off on the arrival, missing checklist items, not remembering what was done or said 15 minutes prior is not safe. Forget the pax. It is self preservation. In most cases where a guy complains they can't afford to live in base and have to commute what they are really saying is they don't want to live in the manner required at their wage in that city. They could live there, but in a smaller house, far from a lake for the boat, not near a babysitting grandmother, or in a less desirable climate. Even at the wage paid a regional guy or probationary pilot at a major, a couple roommates and modest living conditions are doable almost anywhere. If they chose to commute, coming in late on the last flight the night before and getting 4 hours rest is because they simply did not want to leave home earlier. They would rather get in an afternoon round of golf, clean out the gutters or watch the kid's soccer game after school. That is a choice and it is almost always putting their personal life (yes family) or just selfish reason before safety. No commute to base requires you to get in so late you don't get enough sleep. The Colgan pilots could have commuted more responsibly. Just leave earlier.

 

[Recovering LSO]

ok, you're right.... if you haven't seen the PBS Frontline episode you can find it in pieces on youtube. You can say what you want, and I'm certain you're right about it, you can not convince me that the kid grossing $22,000 a year is making poor choices because he wants to play golf, clean the gutters or watch the kid's soccer game.

 

[MasterBates]

Yeah. I had an interview with a regional.

I sat down and did the math, even with the max reserve bumming I could do with my schedule, and never go home (IE, be down in Corpus or Krock Reserve IP'ing any time I was not on a trip) I'd have to sell my not exorbitant by LT standards ($150k mortgage) house, and move into a Puma again.

I went back to Engineering, vice work for that low of pay.

 

[squorch2]

Do they take jobs in cities or put themselves in situations they can't afford, or would cause them to malpractice?

There are limits on the supply of doctors, which is one of the reasons that you see such high salaries for them, along with other pressure relief devices like DOs and nurse practitioners. There aren't a lot of limits on the supply of "qualified" guys to fly for the regionals.

 

[wink]

ok, you're right.... if you haven't seen the PBS Frontline episode you can find it in pieces on youtube. You can say what you want, and I'm certain you're right about it, you can not convince me that the kid grossing $22,000 a year is making poor choices because he wants to play golf, clean the gutters or watch the kid's soccer game.

I may or may not be right. I think I am, but am not sure. I am certain that you misunderstood the statement you quoted above. The guys that I had in mind when I mentioned golf, and kid's soccer games was a pilot for a major airline that chooses to fly a B767 as a junior man instead of a B737 where he would be senior. Then he makes the free choice of not making all the adjustments required of his new bid status, like missing a soccer game because he should commute in to work 3 or 4 hours earlier. The experience you gave me credit for in a previous post informs this perspective because I have seen it over and over. I will likely see it when I go back to work in January. But now that you mention it, regional pilots making 22K also play golf and some have kids. The pull of family is strong. Most of us know that. It has been my personal experience. When I had that 2.5 hour drive to fly for a small airline I mentioned above, I had an apartment in that town. But after my wide had our first child, I found myself staying too late at home after a duty free period to give her a break from a colicky baby. I then drove in morning darkness to get to work with very little new daddy type rest. My chief pilot caught on to my condition within a couple weeks. Just knowing that he noticed jolted me into reality. That didn't happen because I was getting paid crap. It happened because of how I CHOSE to make my commute. Since then, in over 20 years at a major, I have missed lacrosse games, scout meetings, teacher conferences, and parties to make a safe commute. I can't have it all. I live where I want and it allows my wife a great career, and my kids to go to a great school. It just costs me some family time on occasion. Guys commuting unreasonably and causing safety issues piss me off. It is too often just greed. Somehow that becomes a regulatory issue that effects only on duty rest and scheduling.

There are limits on the supply of doctors, which is one of the reasons that you see such high salaries for them, along with other pressure relief devices like DOs and nurse practitioners. There aren't a lot of limits on the supply of "qualified" guys to fly for the regionals.

Very true, that is one good reason for the down side pressure on wages. At some fringe outfits guys fly for free as copilots or single pilot aircraft like Navajos and Otters just so they can build time. I still think my analogy holds some water. Doctors have choices.

 

[Recovering LSO]

. Somehow that becomes a regulatory issue that effects only on duty rest and scheduling.

when the dudes who don't make appropriate choices aren't regulating themselves or being better managed then it needs some of that evil regulation because its still my family in the back of the airplane.

fundamental differences of opinion here.

 

[wink]

when the dudes who don't make appropriate choices aren't regulating themselves or being better managed then it needs some of that evil regulation because its still my family in the back of the airplane.

fundamental differences of opinion here.

Not really. I get where you are coming from. My point is the new regulations miss the mark. The new regs would have had very little if any impact on the mishap that inspired them. The issue of commuting pilots, crash pads, sleeping in chairs in ops, all those things that really made the big splash in the news will not be addressed. And I don't want the feds getting into my time off like that. That is why I bitch about guys that don't self regulate. I am sure we agree that some pilots just aren't being as safe with their commutes as they should and they aren't just poorly paid regional pilots. If they don't self regulate, it will not only hurt people, but may also lead to abridgement of my liberties.

 

[Recovering LSO]

The new regs would have had very little if any impact on the mishap that inspired them.

Agreed. However when a dentist finds a little cavity he doesn't stop drilling at the surface, he's going to go down and get all the surrounding problem areas.

 

[HAL Pilot]

LSO,
Who's to say the doctor/dentist working on you or your family had enough rest? They aren't regulated and they can kill you too.

Also, not all commuting is equal. I normally used to commute from Vegas to Honolulu the day before when our 767s flew the route. Now we use an A330 that has crew rest beds and I take the red eye the night before that departs at 0130. I sleep in a sound proof compartment in a bed for 5+30 of a 6+00 flight, arrive in HNL at 0530, I'm asleep in my condo by 0630, and I'm back at the airport between 1100 and 1400 to fly. I am plenty rested.

Similarly, not all rest is equal even if you don't commute. I know plenty of pilots that are up all day doing household chores, running errands, taking care of their kids, surfing, etc. who then show up to fly all night. Even as a commuter when I did not have the crew rest bed and slept in an economy class seat, I was often more rested then the non-commuter I was flying with. How do you regulate this? If you think the commuter needs regulated, the non-commuter rest needs it too.

I did many night Navy flights with my pilots tired. They may not have been at work but they sure weren't just at home lying in bed. Same situation as I see at the airlines. Should the Navy start doing bed checks?

The bottom line is that you can not regulate rest other than by the time limits. We are professionals and we are expected to prepare ourselves properly for our flights. There are methods within our individual companies and pilot groups of monitoring and correcting those pilots who can't do it for themselves. I do not think the problem is any worse at an airline then I saw in the Navy, we just get the headlines

You can't regulate everything especially common sense. Outside of the required hours free of airline duty, pilot rest is common sense.