New Intel O-1: Carrier "ships company" VS. "squadron"

[DDE1990]

Yeah, kind of like when shoes and aviators found out they were going to do a tour in the sandbox in addition to (read: not in lieu of) their sea tours. Well, ok...maybe not quite the same thing.

Yea I haven't heard of many folks who were happy about the IA situation. It's a different experience that I wouldn't necessarily mind, but I can definitely understand someone's consternation at joining the Navy to drive boats or airplanes and suddenly finding yourself at Ft. Jackson with a rifle in your hands.

 

[LET73]

Yeah, it's a fairly new program; 2009 or 2010 sounds about right. I wish they'd had it back when I was applying (in 2006). I got picked up for both SWO and Intel, and would have loved the chance to do a SWO tour with a guaranteed switch to Intel. As it was, I considered going SWO and taking my chances with the lat transfer, but I ultimately decided I didn't want to risk having to stay a SWO.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I wonder if they'd have many takers with an Intel Option in other warfare areas? Same idea - at wings+X years you have the option to stay 13XX or go IW. Same option for sub guys, too.

I don't know how many ensigns in the first bloom of flight school would want to sign up for that, but when you're a LT at the end of your shore tour and examining the grass on the other side, having an option to painlessly change designators and go a different professional route might be appealing.

And having, say, a former submariner as your AIO in a VP or HSM squadron could be interesting.

 

[DDE1990]

I wonder if they'd have many takers with an Intel Option in other warfare areas? Same idea - at wings+X years you have the option to stay 13XX or go IW. Same option for sub guys, too.

I don't know how many ensigns in the first bloom of flight school would want to sign up for that, but when you're a LT at the end of your shore tour and examining the grass on the other side, having an option to painlessly change designators and go a different professional route might be appealing.

And having, say, a former submariner as your AIO in a VP or HSM squadron could be interesting.

Makes sense to me. If the primary issue Intel JO's have in squadrons is having no idea what the platform is capable of, what its mission entails, and how the platform fits into the greater Big Navy picture, why not send them through the same pipeline as the aviators and NFOs they will be supporting?

I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I'm curious if the SWO/IDC thing is a trial for what you're talking about sir.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I'm still so early on in the process that it's difficult to say. The friends I have in already don't know enough about the program to give me any insight either, which I think is simply a result of the fact that there have been probably less than 50 people selected, and maybe even less than that. What we're the ideas being thrown around, if you don't mind my asking, sir?



That would be a bit of a shock. I am sure there were some very unhappy folks when their IP contract suddenly had an 18 month shoe tour attached to it .

That number would be about right, the low numbers would be about 10 per year for all SWO options.

Straight IP's were only 2-3 per year so I am sure they were just happy to get picked up, and I think they gave them some type of deal, as the initial literature and contract had them going to do the IDC thing after qualifying SWO, that has changed as it appears now that SWO options do 2 DIVO tours as a SWO then do the IDC thing, a senior IDC officer mentioned it all depends on manning and it is possible for some to still do the IDC thing after qualifying SWO, but all case by case.

 

[BigRed389]

Makes sense to me. If the primary issue Intel JO's have in squadrons is having no idea what the platform is capable of, what its mission entails, and how the platform fits into the greater Big Navy picture, why not send them through the same pipeline as the aviators and NFOs they will be supporting?

I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I'm curious if the SWO/IDC thing is a trial for what you're talking about sir.

That "pipeline" can take years, and isn't even all formal schoolhouse training. In that time, the Intel JO's wouldn't be doing much intelling...

 

[DDE1990]

That number would be about right, the low numbers would be about 10 per year for all SWO options.

Straight IP's were only 2-3 per year so I am sure they were just happy to get picked up, and I think they gave them some type of deal, as the initial literature and contract had them going to do the IDC thing after qualifying SWO, that has changed as it appears now that SWO options do 2 DIVO tours as a SWO then do the IDC thing, a senior IDC officer mentioned it all depends on manning and it is possible for some to still do the IDC thing after qualifying SWO, but all case by case.

The way it was explained to me, and what I read in the published regs was that you had to pin SWO and be within 6 months of 0-3 to be lat-transferred without board approval.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I'm curious if the SWO/IDC thing is a trial for what you're talking about sir.

Oh, there's no chance in hell it'd ever happen. I just thought it'd be an interesting idea. Maybe also AIR-/SUB-METOC or IDC options (is SWO-METOC still a thing?)

Personally, I think you get more value if the guys providing operationally-oriented product (especially intel) have an operational background. However, I could see it getting hung up on the "but what would their career path be?" wicket.

Another idea I've always liked is having AIO be a super-JO aviator billet instead of Ensign New Intel Guy. Nothing against Ensign New Intel Guy - I've seen the full spectrum of AIO ensigns from awesome to useless. It just seemed to me they're always thrown off the pier and have various degrees of success in learning to swim. And, hey, that way you get an extra body for the flight sked in the bargain.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

The way it was explained to me, and what I read in the published regs was that you had to pin SWO and be within 6 months of 0-3 to be lat-transferred without board approval.

That is the general path now, when it first started things were a bit different, probably just the USN figuring things out, but the senior officer did say nothing is set in stone and the needs of the community do prevail, and I think they tried to initially model the SWO option program after the SWO nuke program where the person would transfer to the new community right after earning the pin, of course things have changed, but if SWO doesn't need people and the option program does then of course things can change again.

 

[DDE1990]

That is the general path now, when it first started things were a bit different, probably just the USN figuring things out, but the senior officer did say nothing is set in stone and the needs of the community do prevail, and I think they tried to initially model the SWO option program after the SWO nuke program where the person would transfer to the new community right after earning the pin, of course things have changed, but if SWO doesn't need people and the option program does then of course things can change again.

Interesting stuff. As always, thanks for the insight sir.

 

[azguy]

I'm still so early on in the process that it's difficult to say. The friends I have in already don't know enough about the program to give me any insight either, which I think is simply a result of the fact that there have been probably less than 50 people selected, and maybe even less than that. What we're the ideas being thrown around, if you don't mind my asking, sir?

So I think the plan was initially to push SWO/IDW guys to platforms and billets that suit their prospective IDC community. So SWO/Intel guys would go to a big deck, working I assume in CDC to get as close as possible to the intel guys- give them a jump on the intel things. Same for SWO/IP as Commo on a DDG/CG; SWO/IW as Asst EWO on a DDG/CG, etc.

Frankly there is an argument to be made against that idea. You'll be a more well rounded info dominator with a "regular" SWO tour. Plus, I'd be surprised if the detailer's could get that sorted out.

 

[LET73]

So I think the plan was initially to push SWO/IDW guys to platforms and billets that suit their prospective IDC community. So SWO/Intel guys would go to a big deck, working I assume in CDC to get as close as possible to the intel guys- give them a jump on the intel things. Same for SWO/IP as Commo on a DDG/CG; SWO/IW as Asst EWO on a DDG/CG, etc.

Frankly there is an argument to be made against that idea. You'll be a more well rounded info dominator with a "regular" SWO tour. Plus, I'd be surprised if the detailer's could get that sorted out.

That's not how it worked out, if that was the original intent. They're not Intel guys for that first tour; they're SWOs, and they do normal SWO ensign tours, however the detailer wants to assign them. It's just that they have the option to switch over to Intel if they want to after that first tour.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

That's not how it worked out, if that was the original intent. They're not Intel guys for that first tour; they're SWOs, and they do normal SWO ensign tours, however the detailer wants to assign them. It's just that they have the option to switch over to Intel if they want to after that first tour.

yep, besides the ones from my NRD I ran into a SWO IP or IW while escorting DV's on a tour of a FFG in FL

 

[LFCFan]

Another idea I've always liked is having AIO be a super-JO aviator billet instead of Ensign New Intel Guy. Nothing against Ensign New Intel Guy - I've seen the full spectrum of AIO ensigns from awesome to useless. It just seemed to me they're always thrown off the pier and have various degrees of success in learning to swim. And, hey, that way you get an extra body for the flight sked in the bargain.

How thrown off the pier happens: The problem is that our intel schoolhouse trains generalists (because that is how the rest of our career works), and the short aviation intel follow on course is mostly about collateral duties. Billets are given out based almost purely on touchy-feely reasons. So you get the list of options for your class, rank them on a dream sheet, and then tell them why you want it, like "I own a house in San Diego" or "I've got a girlfriend and want to stay in Virginia Beach." So this means that you get some folks who either don't give a crap about aviation and end up full time collateral duty officers, or you have folks who can't fit in in a ready room. Class rank is more of a tiebreaker.

A super JO pilot as the AIO wouldn't work at the CSG level. The way all the different entities in the CSG come together to do intel needs 1830s and not 13XXs. Yes, they can probably do a better threat brief than ENS Schmuckatelli, but what goes on in CVIC is totally different to what happens in a squadron intel-wise.

And having, say, a former submariner as your AIO in a VP or HSM squadron could be interesting.

Even if there was another URL-to-intel switch, they wouldn't do this. The way our career path is structured, by the time you lat X-fer your next sea tour is something bigger like a DESRON N2, CVW Targeteer, etc.

 

[LET73]

Even if there was another URL-to-intel switch, they wouldn't do this. The way our career path is structured, by the time you lat X-fer your next sea tour is something bigger like a DESRON N2, CVW Targeteer, etc.

Generally yes, but I've also seen a handful of LTs going to squadrons, which isn't a bad thing. The squadron AIs are really on their own, with less training on aviation-specific stuff than they should have, and that can be tough on a new ensign. Now consider a squadron that's had a few less-than-stellar AIs, and so doesn't trust intel, and even the best ensign's going to have a hard time doing much beyond being an awesome SSO/Command Security Manager. I'd personally prefer that the Navy sent experienced intel types to squadrons, and not brand new ensigns/JGs. New ensigns need more mentoring than most get on the aviation intel side.