New Pilot AND NFO Max Age Limit!

[nittany03]

I can't stand that attitude. I understand it, but it is wrong IMHO. Flight school, no matter the stage, is still a filter for the fleet. Can't stand it when students show up to the FRS, or worse a fleet squadron, unprepared and should have been attrited in advanced.

But instead, we pass the trash because "no one should attrite past primary".

There's a world of difference between making damn sure the IPs didn't fail the student and so-called "passing the trash." What @ChuckMK23 is describing is precisely the opposite of "passing the trash;" it's doing a post-mortem to figure out how an attrite got so far along and how to ID them earlier next time.

There are three types of people in any line of work, Naval Aviation included: Those that can succeed with little or no help, those who have no business being there, and those who can muddle through mostly competently with some coaching. Sure, it's actually a continuum, but my point remains. If someone can't make an honest effort to milk as much as practical out of that middle third, without confusing them with the bottom third and writing them off, they have no business in any kind of instructor role.

 

[MGoBrew11]

There's a world of difference between making damn sure the IPs didn't fail the student and so-called "passing the trash." What @ChuckMK23 is describing is precisely the opposite of "passing the trash;" it's doing a post-mortem to figure out how an attrite got so far along and how to ID them earlier next time.

There are three types of people in any line of work, Naval Aviation included: Those that can succeed with little or no help, those who have no business being there, and those who can muddle through mostly competently with some coaching. Sure, it's actually a continuum, but my point remains. If someone can't make an honest effort to milk as much as practical out of that middle third, without confusing them with the bottom third and writing them off, they have no business in any kind of instructor role.

Don’t really see how my statement was a straw man. Chuck said the commodore at the time viewed (all?) advanced attrites at TW5 a failure of the system, which I think is absurd. My bet is some of them deserved the axe. Surely you can agree there are some that squeak by in flight school that should not? In my experience (granted, less than yours) sometimes someone attempted to show them the door but they were stymied by the type of attitude Chuck described at the wing level.

And fwiw my post was not aimed as an attack on Chuck’s post as your meme seems to imply. I was just simply responding to what he said was the attitude of the TRAWING which I still think exists to an extent.

I agree with the rest of what you said re three types of people and the duty you have as an instructor.

 

[nittany03]

Don’t really see how my statement was a straw man. Chuck said the commodore at the time viewed (all?) advanced attrites at TW5 a failure of the system, which I think is absurd. My bet is some of them deserved the axe. Surely you can agree there are some that squeak by in flight school that should not? In my experience (granted, less than yours) sometimes someone attempted to show them the door but they were stymied by the type of attitude Chuck described at the wing level.

And fwiw my post was not aimed as an attack on Chuck’s post as your meme seems to imply. I was just simply responding to what he said was the attitude of the TRAWING which I still think exists to an extent.

I agree with the rest of what you said re three types of people and the duty you have as an instructor.

Fair enough. The sticking point I had is that what Chuck is describing (IMO) isn't the idea that "no stud should be attrited." It's "we failed this person by giving them false hope, now let's figure out how that happened and not do it again." So if you're attacking an idea that "no stud should be attrited," I don't think you're after what he actually said. I'm not saying you deliberately set up a straw man; I just thought you were seeing an argument there that I don't think he's making. Postmortems == good. Letting unqualified studs through out of some misguided sense of mercy == bad.

 

[CommodoreMid]

We have checks throughout the whole syllabus for a reason. An SNA might be able to solo a T-6 and handle IFR stuff no problem, but when you throw at them actually managing tasks that you would have to do in a real fleet aircraft they might fail. Not a knock on the primary instructors, just an indication they can only handle aircraft doing point a to b work.

 

[Brett327]

just a GED

?

 

[isshinwhat]

Remember guys, statistics inform about a population, not necessarily about YOU.

I get how statistics work, but somewhere, at some point, a good dude who wants to go for broke may read through this thread and I hope when he does he says, screw statistics, I can’t pass up the opportunity. I want that dude to know that some of us enjoyed UPT, made great friends, and weren’t crushed by life despite having a family a long being a few years older. ??‍♂️

 

[Griz882]

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been any thought of having post-primary attritions slide into a UAV seat? I know the Marines have officer UAV drivers but not sure about the Navy. They have shown some airmanship skill and cost some money, so why not get some value out of them?

 

[wlawr005]

Well, I can tell you that an Advanced attrite from Kingsville just got three-year orders to our squadron. I have no idea what he's gonna do for three years or how they worked that (good?) deal.

Preliminary reports say permanent skeds O....maybe a DIVO in the future? Security Manager?

 

[Flash]

Well, I can tell you that an Advanced attrite from Kingsville just got three-year orders to our squadron. I have no idea what he's gonna do for three years or how they worked that (good?) deal.

Preliminary reports say permanent skeds O....maybe a DIVO in the future? Security Manager?

We had at least one flight school attrite get sent to my first squadron where he became the full time Legal O.

 

[Brett327]

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been any thought of having post-primary attritions slide into a UAV seat? I know the Marines have officer UAV drivers but not sure about the Navy. They have shown some airmanship skill and cost some money, so why not get some value out of them?

Navy UAVs seem mostly embedded in established aviation communities (Fire Scout/BAMS/MQ-25), not as stand alone units.

 

[Griz882]

Navy UAVs seem mostly embedded in established aviation communities (Fire Scout/BAMS/MQ-25), not as stand alone units.

Check.

 

[nittany03]

We had at least one flight school attrite get sent to my first squadron where he became the full time Legal O.

Ouch.

 

[Flash]

Ouch.

Yup! We usually had 3 Legal O’s since we deployed as dets and as the largest operational squadron in the Navy they always had a lot of work, my roommate was one for a while and he worked far harder than I ever did. Apparently when BUPERS shopped some bodies around for work we snapped one up to take that fun job on.

 

[BarryD]

Well, I can tell you that an Advanced attrite from Kingsville just got three-year orders to our squadron. I have no idea what he's gonna do for three years or how they worked that (good?) deal.

Preliminary reports say permanent skeds O....maybe a DIVO in the future? Security Manager?

Curious, is he one of those 1300 General Aviation designators?

 

[DanMa1156]

Curious, is he one of those 1300 General Aviation designators?

That's what I've seen happen to most of our attrites - 1300, then get sent to a CVN to be a TAO.