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Flash

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Brett327 said:
Falls under their (somewhat) outdated doctrine of self-sufficiency.

Brett
Click to expand...

There is also a bit of history behind them too. They were the only ones to operate 'tactical' EA assets in the beginning in Vietnam, starting with the EF-10 Skynight (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-10.htm) . They were also the impetus behind the development of the EA-6A Intruder (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/newa6_5.html / http://www.bubbamoose.com/a6.html) . The Navy used the EKA-3 (http://www.a3skywarrior.com/gif/f8-a4-a3.jpg) and the Air Force used the EB-66 (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b66_1.html / http://www.flygplan.info/images/Douglas_EB-66_Destroyer.jpg) (same basic design) for EA for most of the Vietnam War. The EA-6A could get a lot closer to the fight than the relatively large EKA-3/EB-66's and could avoid getting shot down better. The NVAF learned early on what the EKA-3's and EB-66's were doing and went after them and actually shot down a handful of EB-66's (remember Bat 21?), pushing them further away from the fight and making their jamming less effective. Which is why the Navy developed the EA-6B and the Air Force developed the EF-111, based on their respective primary strike/attack aircraft platforms of the day (EA-6B's made their combat debut with VAQ-132 in 1972).

So the Marines have a a deep history in tactical aviation EA, pioneering where the Navy and the Air Force lagged. Fortunately the Navy still remembers those lessons but the AF seems to forget their history, as usual......:confused:

P.S. I have to credit the book "Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemy's Air Defences" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1852606053/104-1997672-4602308?v=glance&n=283155 . I figured when I got to Prowlers I might as well learn some of the history of EA and it is a great book for that, if you are into that kind of stuff.......and want to show off some mad knowledges on AW.......:D
 
HeyJoe

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Flash said:
There is also a bit of history behind them too. They were the only ones to operate 'tactical' EA assets in the beginning in Vietnam, starting with the EF-10 Skynight (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-10.htm) . They were also the impetus behind the development of the EA-6A Intruder (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/newa6_5.html / http://www.bubbamoose.com/a6.html) . The Navy used the EKA-3 (http://www.a3skywarrior.com/gif/f8-a4-a3.jpg) and the Air Force used the EB-66 (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b66_1.html / http://www.flygplan.info/images/Douglas_EB-66_Destroyer.jpg) (same basic design) for EA for most of the Vietnam War. The EA-6A could get a lot closer to the fight than the relatively large EKA-3/EB-66's and could avoid getting shot down better. The NVAF learned early on what the EKA-3's and EB-66's were doing and went after them and actually shot down a handful of EB-66's (remember Bat 21?), pushing them further away from the fight and making their jamming less effective. Which is why the Navy developed the EA-6B and the Air Force developed the EF-111, based on their respective primary strike/attack aircraft platforms of the day (EA-6B's made their combat debut with VAQ-132 in 1972).

So the Marines have a a deep history in tactical aviation EA, pioneering where the Navy and the Air Force lagged. Fortunately the Navy still remembers those lessons but the AF seems to forget their history, as usual......:confused:

P.S. I have to credit the book "Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemy's Air Defences" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1852606053/104-1997672-4602308?v=glance&n=283155 . I figured when I got to Prowlers I might as well learn some of the history of EA and it is a great book for that, if you are into that kind of stuff.......and want to show off some mad knowledges on AW.......:D
Click to expand...

Great history slice...don't forget the Queer Spads (EA-1F)

ea1f_flight.jpg
 
A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
^^ AND ..... after the SPAD and before the EA-6B there was another Navy "EW bird".... *gasp* ... the A-6B !! :eek:

Or did someone say it and I just missed it ... ???:)

I flew a couple and was amazed at the relative simplicity of the system --- not totally satisfactory, but since no one asked me, I figured you dance with the one who brung 'ya. An A-6 bomber B/N operated the right seat and "most" EW systems --- no specialized ECMO's in sight in any of the A-6 squadrons.

It was @ 1967 when the first A-6B mods reached the Fleet ... and it was an early "hit" and the Navy's answer to the AF "Wild Weasel's" while the EA-6A was trying to find it's mission in the Marines (never totally satisfactory --- once described to me as the jamming equivalent of an electric razor placed next to a TV set) and the Navy EA-6B was getting off the drawing boards and into the production lines. Standard Arm or Shrike were the choice of weapons for the discerning early A-6 variant of "Iron Hand". Herculean efforts were made to keep them "up" as they were too expensive to be used as tankers .... :)

 *edit* found a pix. .... an A-6B spreading 'em onboard USS Saratoga

It was originally intended that each Intruder squadron would have a couple of A-6Bs which would "go downtown" alongside the A-6As. A-6Bs were originally issued to several squadrons--i.e., VA-34, VA-35, and VA-85 initially .... but in practice they were "shared" amongst all deploying A-6 squadrons as were the KA-6 tankers. It was envisioned early on that the "B" model could "hunt" by itself --- a nascent SEAD doctrine before anyone ever heard the acronymn "SEAD"??

The A-6B was "capable" of operating alone against SAM sites, since it carried early PATARM (passive) electronic countermeasures equipment for detecting radar emissions as well as the missiles for attacking them. It didn't happen too often in practice, however. Lots of experimentation with the "capabilities" of the bird (real or imagined). A common load-out was two Shrike and two AGM-75 Standard ARMs on the wings and a fuel tank on the centerline station. 4 Standard ARM's were always preferred if available ... :)

At one time, there were plans to convert over 50 A-6's to the "B" Iron-Hand configuration, but as it turned out only 19 were completed when the EA-6B's were coming online. 5 A-6B's were lost in combat operations during the Vietnam War. The 14 survivors were all upgraded to A-6E standards sometime between 1973 and 1979.
 
lucian_boy

lucian_boy

Registered User
So how will this a/c work for the aircrew? The ea-6b had 4 personal now this one have 2, will this open up the aviation officer community for more pilots and nfo/backseat aircrew or will it stay the same.
 
Flash

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A4sForever said:
^^ AND ..... after the SPAD and before the EA-6B there was another Navy "EW bird".... *gasp* ... the A-6B !! :eek:

Or did someone say it and I just missed it ... ???:)

I flew a couple and was amazed at the relative simplicity of the system --- not totally satisfactory, but since no one asked me, I figured you dance with the one who brung 'ya. An A-6 bomber B/N operated the right seat and "most" EW systems --- no specialized ECMO's in sight in any of the A-6 squadrons.

It was @ 1967 when the first A-6B mods reached the Fleet ... and it was an early "hit" and the Navy's answer to the AF "Wild Weasel's" while the EA-6A was trying to find it's mission in the Marines (never totally satisfactory --- once described to me as the jamming equivalent of an electric razor placed next to a TV set) and the Navy EA-6B was getting off the drawing boards and into the production lines. Standard Arm or Shrike were the choice of weapons for the discerning early A-6 variant of "Iron Hand". Herculean efforts were made to keep them "up" as they were too expensive to be used as tankers .... :)

 *edit* found a pix. .... an A-6B spreading 'em onboard USS Saratoga

It was originally intended that each Intruder squadron would have a couple of A-6Bs which would "go downtown" alongside the A-6As. A-6Bs were originally issued to several squadrons--i.e., VA-34, VA-35, and VA-85 initially .... but in practice they were "shared" amongst all deploying A-6 squadrons as were the KA-6 tankers. It was envisioned early on that the "B" model could "hunt" by itself --- a nascent SEAD doctrine before anyone ever heard the acronymn "SEAD"??

The A-6B was "capable" of operating alone against SAM sites, since it carried early PATARM (passive) electronic countermeasures equipment for detecting radar emissions as well as the missiles for attacking them. It didn't happen too often in practice, however. Lots of experimentation with the "capabilities" of the bird (real or imagined). A common load-out was two Shrike and two AGM-75 Standard ARMs on the wings and a fuel tank on the centerline station. 4 Standard ARM's were always preferred if available ... :)

At one time, there were plans to convert over 50 A-6's to the "B" Iron-Hand configuration, but as it turned out only 19 were completed when the EA-6B's were coming online. 5 A-6B's were lost in combat operations during the Vietnam War. The 14 survivors were all upgraded to A-6E standards sometime between 1973 and 1979.
Click to expand...

I did not forget about them :D , I was trying to cover the jamming planes (should have specificed), not the Wild Weasel and Iron Hand birds. I thought it would be an even longer post with even more links than the one I already did, having to include F-100F's, F-105F/G's and F-4G's (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=570715) as well as the A-6B's. I remember distinctly from the Flight of the Intruder, the movie and the book, the portrayal of the A-6B. An interesting and uh, well, should we say challenging job?
 
Brett327

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
valion_pride said:
So how will this a/c work for the aircrew? The ea-6b had 4 personal now this one have 2, will this open up the aviation officer community for more pilots and nfo/backseat aircrew or will it stay the same.
Click to expand...

This has all been covered ad nauseum in a couple of other threads as well as this one - I encourage you to read them. The short answer is that there will be no appreciable change in manning from the SNA/SNFO point of view.

Brett
 
Tex_Hill

Tex_Hill

Airborne All the Way!!!
A4sForever said:
^^ AND ..... after the SPAD and before the EA-6B there was another Navy "EW bird".... *gasp* ... the A-6B !! :eek:

Or did someone say it and I just missed it ... ???:)

I flew a couple and was amazed at the relative simplicity of the system --- not totally satisfactory, but since no one asked me, I figured you dance with the one who brung 'ya. An A-6 bomber B/N operated the right seat and "most" EW systems --- no specialized ECMO's in sight in any of the A-6 squadrons.

It was @ 1967 when the first A-6B mods reached the Fleet ... and it was an early "hit" and the Navy's answer to the AF "Wild Weasel's" while the EA-6A was trying to find it's mission in the Marines (never totally satisfactory --- once described to me as the jamming equivalent of an electric razor placed next to a TV set) and the Navy EA-6B was getting off the drawing boards and into the production lines. Standard Arm or Shrike were the choice of weapons for the discerning early A-6 variant of "Iron Hand". Herculean efforts were made to keep them "up" as they were too expensive to be used as tankers .... :)

 *edit* found a pix. .... an A-6B spreading 'em onboard USS Saratoga

It was originally intended that each Intruder squadron would have a couple of A-6Bs which would "go downtown" alongside the A-6As. A-6Bs were originally issued to several squadrons--i.e., VA-34, VA-35, and VA-85 initially .... but in practice they were "shared" amongst all deploying A-6 squadrons as were the KA-6 tankers. It was envisioned early on that the "B" model could "hunt" by itself --- a nascent SEAD doctrine before anyone ever heard the acronymn "SEAD"??

The A-6B was "capable" of operating alone against SAM sites, since it carried early PATARM (passive) electronic countermeasures equipment for detecting radar emissions as well as the missiles for attacking them. It didn't happen too often in practice, however. Lots of experimentation with the "capabilities" of the bird (real or imagined). A common load-out was two Shrike and two AGM-75 Standard ARMs on the wings and a fuel tank on the centerline station. 4 Standard ARM's were always preferred if available ... :)

At one time, there were plans to convert over 50 A-6's to the "B" Iron-Hand configuration, but as it turned out only 19 were completed when the EA-6B's were coming online. 5 A-6B's were lost in combat operations during the Vietnam War. The 14 survivors were all upgraded to A-6E standards sometime between 1973 and 1979.
Click to expand...



IIRC, the A-6B & the "Iron Hand" missions played a prominent role in the book Flight of the Intruder. It's been probably 20 years since I read it though.
 
HeyJoe

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Flash said:
Great catch, forgot about those old slow guys......they covered them in the book too.....;)
Click to expand...

Their rides may have been old and slow but their trons were as fast as anybody else's
 
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