NFO as a FAC

[FlyinSpy]

^^And that's as much as we need to discuss regarding mensurated coordinates.

This post isn't so much for the guys with the info, but rather the guys with the questions.

The concept of mensuration isn't even close to being a secret; it's just arcane. You don't find a lot on google about it because it's really a niche subject, and google seems to want to redirect you to <ahem>, uh, "feminine issues not related to targeting". The key element is elevation data, combined with precise reference imagery. Here's a decent summary:

"When engaging targets with PGMs,accurate target location, to include altitude, is paramount. (When targeting buildings, the feature height or a three-dimensional target grid is critical.)The target location error (TLE) is the key determinate of the risk to troops andcollateral damage estimate. Minimizing the TLE is the difference between atarget hit and a miss.Because even minor inaccuracies canlead to tragic results, most grids are mensurated. (Mensuration determines the exact three-dimensional target location by applying mathematical algorithms to compare two images within the digital point position database, or DPPDB, of the same terrain iteratively until they match.) For target mensuration, certain software must be employed for both planned and unplanned targets. Targeting specialists use systems based on the DPPDB, such as Dewdrop, Raindrop,and Rainstorm, to determine the most accurate target location. These assets are typically at the theater level, however, and are not practical for use against time-sensitive targets (TSTs)."

And from the "I learned something new today" bucket, if you go to slides 24-26 from this brief you can see how data from Litening pods or UAVs can be linked quickly to a laptop to produce mensurated points. Everybody wins!! :icon_tong

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006psa_psts/kuz.pdf

 

[Fly Navy]

Harrier/Litening/JDAM=Point, click, BOOM! If you can talk me on to it, I can hit it.* Period.

*To avoid any more "bravado" issues, I'm talking about how good the system is, not my personal mastery of BCWD/TCWD.

So can a Rhino with ATFLIR. Self-generation of JDAM quality coordinates goes with ATFLIR as well. It's a great pod that a lot of Marines (and Navy) are unfamiliar with, especially with the new software.

 

[Brett327]

I'm not trying to suck off the Harrier guys...

Thanks be to God.

Brett

 

[squeeze]

So can a Rhino with ATFLIR. Self-generation of JDAM quality coordinates goes with ATFLIR as well. It's a great pod that a lot of Marines (and Navy) are unfamiliar with, especially with the new software.

Self Generation of JDAM quality coordinates is not the defining aspect with the Harrier. Just about any SNIPER/LITENING/ATFLIR-equipped aircraft can generate "JDAM quality coordinates," but only a very few can enable the relative BIT in the bomb and drop it relative. There are only 2 a/c in the DOD inventory that can do that right now I believe (AV-8B and I think the F-15E).

What that means is that the aircraft imparts a bias into the bomb in the same magnitude and direction of the GPS system error at the point in time when TXA occurs (release for the Harrier). Since GPS errors are not necessarily linear or predictable, the error at release could be small/similar/less than the time of coordinate generation, but in a completely opposite direction.

Clear as mud?

 

[HeyJoe]

Since GPS errors are not necessarily linear or predictable, the error at release could be small/similar/less than the time of coordinate generation, but in a completely opposite direction.

Clear as mud?

Yep. Although every contributing factor to Target Location Error (TLE) cannot be predicted (some can be predicted and others mitigated to lowest value), error at release can be minimized by technique you mention. Terminal guidance a la data-link (video datalink or other datalink) offers final correction and opens door to be able to handle moving targets.

 

[Fly Navy]

Did they ever add an IR marker? I've seen ATFLIR video and really liked it, but I'd hate to lose the marker.

Sure did, what a fantastic piece of equipment too, I love that marker.

 

[skidkid]

I guess I will weigh in on the shitstorm I unintentionally had a part in starting. My comment about showing up FAC(A) capable was directed at platforms currently able to be FAC(A)s not a slight at platforms not currently flying that mission. If a D or Skid shows up FAC(A) capable chance are, not always but pretty good that you have the more experienced A team out there to support you. I wholeheartedly agree if you dont need a FAC(A) dont put it on the JTAR.

As far as Harrier FAC(A)s I have serious doubts as to the platforms (as well as singel seat Hornets) ability to do that mission. I will sing the Harrier as a CAS platform's praises all day long with a slight nod to the very real limitations the bird has (we all have limitations).
Sure a single seat Harrier with lots of tanker support in the current conflcit could accomplish the FAC(A) mission but I dont think they could do it in a high threat non permisive environment.
At the low end FAC(A) is go look at something the guy on the ground cant see and get fires on it, not all that hard really. At the high end it is managing threats, running multiple agencies concurrently and deconflicting it all. At the most basic level this sometimes involves one aricraft needing to talk on two radios at once, cant do that single seat.
If there were such a thing as low threat or permissive FAC(A) sure have at it but FAC(A) is FAC(A) whether it is sniffing POO in Iraq or supressing Iran's IAD to hit a tank company.

I realize that those Senior and perhaps smarter than I have decided that single seat FAC(A) is coming but I still contend that it will purely be to placate/play nice with the AF as a SCAR manager than no kidding FAC(A).

By the way there isnt too much that happens without a section in most communities.

Edit: To the original question, a few months ago there was a Naval Aviation news with some Navy hornet dude all nomex ninja'd out, doing a FAC/AirO tour with the SEALs, not ANGLICO but you can still get rained on. If they have pilots doing that I am sure NFOs could as well.

 

[TAMR]

Hate to revive a dead thread, but this seems better than creating a new topic.

These days, are there any ways for Navy NFO's to get experience on the ground working with Marines in an expeditionary unit or equivalent? IA or such?

 

[insanebikerboy]

There ARE Navy positions with NSW as JTACs. That's the closest you're going to get.

Well, there are a few fires positions with Anglico units for Navy guys, I think those have traditionally gone to helo bubbas though.

 

[insanebikerboy]

That makes zero sense.

The guys I know that have gone have been pretty shit hot as a JTAC.

 

[insanebikerboy]

I'm sure they're wonderful folks with excellent people skills. That's not the point.

The point is that it makes very little sense to send Navy pilots to ANGLICO to begin with. And if we're going to go ahead and do that anyway, it would make zero sense to "block off" those billets for arguably the Naval Aviation community least experienced with close air support or fires integration.

If its naval gunfire that they're experts in, then fine. That's why we have a NGLO, who (as far as I've ever seen) isn't ever a pilot.

I'm genuinely not trying to pick on navy chopper dudes or their community or imply that their job isn't worthwhile. It's just not in their lane.

Funny thing is, I actually agree with you.

 

[phrogdriver]

There ARE Navy positions with NSW as JTACs. That's the closest you're going to get.

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to make one of their operators a JTAC than to have an aviator tag along with them?

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to make one of their operators a JTAC than to have an aviator tag along with them?

The NSW positions are probably more roughly equivalent to an air officer gig than a company FAC. There's usually an assaulter who is the boots-on-the-ground JTAC, although there tend to be the predictable issues with cross-training a guy as a JTAC as a short-term secondary billet.