No More DCOIC as of FY20 - ODS Guidance

[Jones29681]

Running the risk of turning this thread into a moan-fest like the other one, I'm also not super excited for 5 weeks of ODS if I'm selected. I'm a non-prior, so I see the benefit of it. However, it's disruptive and part of the appeal of the DCO route is the abbreviated initial training. There's plenty of designator specific training that follows Indoc, plus a good amount of drill weekends/AT along the way. It feels like it'll only serve to dilute the candidate pool. Rant over.

 

[Reservist]

Great point, we should change the regs to let all prior enlisted skip all forms of commissioning indoc programs. Waste of time because you already know how to march...

I usually think you make sense Goodfou -and that's the only reason I'm taking the bait on the reply here (ordinarily I would avoid a debate if it seemed pointless).

Navy is changing regs on us mid stream after much planning and waiting (over a year and two in some cases). - The cause and effect is backwards.

I'll march to the change if I can't get what I want - but I see no reason that the Navy can't keep their side of the bargain. Our contracts (IW folks anyways) say DCOIC two weeks first year, 30 days AT second year, roughly 30 At days third year.

This is a lot of time off for people with civilian jobs for a reserve commission - yes - we get a lot out the program too - and we are expected to march and adapt when the time comes. Still, we have plenty of hardships to come and we should be able to avoid the unnecessary ones when possible when someone changes the program on us midstream.

There are several classes scheduled before this change takes effect. The Navy should be able to squeeze a few of us into them. This is avoidable hardship. Moreover - while I know this change is really coming - it has yet to be formally announced. All word of mouth.

 

[bubblehead]

It feels like it'll only serve to dilute the candidate pool.

It will reduce the candidate pool, not dilute it.

They have been talking about these changes for years and are finally getting around to actioning them. There is no easy way to do it, other than to do it. There will be initial whining and attrition, then people will get used to the new normal.

The alignment with Active Duty training programs will go a long way in producing a better cadre of Reserve officers, in my opinion. The Marine Corps has been doing things (all commissioned officers regardless of commissioning source, active or reserve, attend TBS) this way for a very, very, long time.

 

[Goodfou]

I usually think you make sense Goodfou -and that's the only reason I'm taking the bait on the reply here (ordinarily I would avoid a debate if it seemed pointless).

Navy is changing regs on us mid stream after much planning and waiting (over a year and two in some cases). - The cause and effect is backwards.

I'll march to the change if I can't get what I want - but I see no reason that the Navy can't keep their side of the bargain. Our contracts (IW folks anyways) say DCOIC two weeks first year, 30 days AT second year, roughly 30 At days third year.

This is a lot of time off for people with civilian jobs for a reserve commission - yes - we get a lot out the program too - and we are expected to march and adapt when the time comes. Still, we have plenty of hardships to come and we should be able to avoid the unnecessary ones when possible when someone changes the program on us midstream.

There are several classes scheduled before this change takes effect. The Navy should be able to squeeze a few of us into them. This is avoidable hardship. Moreover - while I know this change is really coming - it has yet to be formally announced. All word of mouth.

You have been in the military for 9 plus years. You should know by now that the Navy changes policy all the time. This is nothing new. At this point, you have had many months to adjust your expectations of how long you will be in Newport. That is much more than any get to plan for changed deployments, ship’s movement etc.

I understand that you are juggling military and civilian life; however, I take issue with your assumptions that OCS/ODS etc are anything like enlisted boot camp. You are an officer now with no idea what that means (and you at least have enlisted experience). DCOs with no military experience are even more clueless. All you (and they) have to go off of are your assumptions of what it means to be commissioned. DCOIC barely scratches the surface. ODS will go a long way to fill in the gaps for all of you. Yes, you will relearn everything I guarantee you forgot about marching. If you want to be challenged, call cadence for marching. The bottom line is you will get out of it what you put into it. PT, inspections, etc. I also know you will learn a lot about bigger picture decision making through case study discussions and learn more about policy and programs you need to know to lead Sailors.

One thing is for sure, I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you complete the training.

 

[Hair Warrior]

^ agree.

 

[bubblehead]

People, just suck it up. If you don't want to commit, there is a line of people a mile long just waiting to take your place. Please also do not try to understand or otherwise course correct the Navy in their decisions or thought process: it's an exercise in utter frustration.

I am prior enlisted and would have preferred to have attended ODS because I felt DCOIC was utterly worthless and was doing people a disservice.

 

[Jones29681]

People, just suck it up. If you don't want to commit, there is a line of people a mile long just waiting to take your place.

This is the attitude needed going forward. Thanks for the perspective.

 

[bubblehead]

This is the attitude needed going forward. Thanks for the perspective.

My intent is to save new people from unnecessary frustration. It can eat you up otherwise.

 

[Reservist]

I'm in the Navy for the long haul - but I'm going to bail on the discussion after these points. Feel free to critique me, my ideas, or whatever you do - I may PM you and I may ignore it. Please don't take it as I don't like. I think I see a lot of good points from all so far.

You can pull what you need from this exchange as I have - but I'm going to cherry pick with who I talk with from here based on the information that is of use to me now. I'm high speed low drag like that sometimes. Feel free to knock me from my soap box though.

I'll be around the Navy and I'm sure we'll cross paths again if the stars align.

I embrace the suck when I need too - But I don't endorse the creation of the suck just for the sake of doing so or to put a patch on something that isn't working.

Reality is we have a great DCO program already. The majority of DCOs meet and far exceed standards with the two week school.

I'm honest with myself and others, so I'll even concede that the DCO program could be better and there are places for improvement. So if we are to fix something, let's not use a patch or the ODS school - Let's really fix it.

I don't think you guys that want a longer school are crazy. I do disagree with doing it and the logic used to justify the positions for the school. I also disagree with the outcomes that will occur from a longer school.

Recruiting is a delicate balance but reserve life is even more fragile. The net effect of this change to five weeks had better be twice as positive as what you think it will be because the net effect is going to be equally bad for recruiting and retention. We lose 10's of thousands of sailors every year on retention - some for the better and many not for the better.

On the recruiting side - Successful people with good jobs that want to serve aren't all in college. A month or more away from work is hard anytime in a career. Doing that three years in a row is ridiculous to expect from reservists or employers. That is what non-prior and undesignated reservists are being asked to do now. If we are looking for some of these folks to be career reservists and to stick around - add a few deployments - missed vacations, birthdays, cook outs for 20 years because of AT and drill weekends ect...

We get a lot out of the reserve but have not doubt - there's a tipping point. Less so for me - because I'm half way through the journey. But I see the tipping point coming more quickly than I have seen it come for sailors joining the reserve now, than that it has come in the past. That is not good news.

I ask - Who they hell needs another three weeks of suck on top of suck so that they can meet or exceed the standards they are already satisfy?

The people that benefit from this kind of extra training aren't going to get what they are missing from this extra three weeks and we are going to deter successful people that are past the college phase of life, that are balancing new careers, families ect. - from joining the reserve. You can chose to ignore this reality if suits your argument - but don't pretend that it isn't actually a reality.

The reserve life balance is real folks! More real than many other factors we are looking at and it deserves more consideration in any policy changes we are considering.

Ask any new selects how there accession process to the Navy has been and you find out it's been abysmal. Totally disorganized. So much so that many think already that joining the Navy has been a huge waste of time.

Several I've talked with have already contemplated bailing at or before the end of their obligation because the headache and the suck isn't worth what they give up to try to serve. These are smart capable people that are willing to serve, want to serve, and they rightfully feel jerked around by the Navy with NROWS, never being able to get dates for courses, nothing every getting done on the first try, ect.....

This is a place for the Navy and the people that run the Navy to listen too in order to best fix a problem that we all recognize. Not just a suck it up butter cup moment where we tell everyone how hard is was before their time.

I had a break is service so I have the benefit of seeing the big picture. I actually agree with the new accessions and you that the Navy admin and training process is broken. It is broken. I have never seen it more dysfunctional than it is now.

Everybody on this post should actually agree on the point that there is a problem with accession, because it is what we are all addressing here.

My two cents is adding suck on top of suck to fix the suck isn't the way to do this. I even concede that hardship and challenging situations have a place in the training process for all of us. For some - they really define us. For others - those experience hopefully also provide some meaningful training so that we can function better and perform under pressure on our journey. But, if the suck we add doesn't define us and provide meaningful training - it becomes real suck and that detracts from the Navy, morale, readiness, recruiting, and retention.

The ready members take time to get ready. That's reality. But we can always add suck on top of suck when we mobilize sailors. It's the best place to do it. Reservists, employers, and the Navy are best positioned to mitigate all that comes with training hardships with mobilizations. It's a natural spot to totally uproot sailors from their civilian lives and make them full time Navy.

I'll add too from a personal point of view - We are all getting little snapshots of each other's personalities on these blogs. I'm sure all of have quirks but are by and large good people. I like all of you.

It's easy to get one sided though. And that being said - in my mind - it's not fair to say don't criticize or try to understand the Navy's process -just embrace the suck like me - but then advocate for the changing the Navy's current policy in a way that suits your perspective in the same breath.

Without being overly critical here, the do as I say approach mindset negates the one thing we should all agree on - that there is a problem with accession because it is exactly what we are all addressing here.

I'm getting off topic here - but that logic doesn't work for me. It is do as a say not as I do leadership and far from what I know we all like to see best.

We want example! We want to lead by example and follow examples. Maybe even once in a while we get crazy and totally break the mold and try something new.... Innovation and change can actually be good.

Without being overly critical here, there is one thing we should all agree on - that there is a problem with accession because it is exactly what we are all addressing here.

I will let you know how the school goes for me. I'm off my soap box - but free to time travel when you read this and knock me off of it. I'm cherry picking from here on out to get what I need to get the two week school in and to work with people that are trying to work to accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish for a bit. You know - keeping it high speed low drag for a bit... I'll catch up with you all in time. I'll be around.

 

[Flash]

I'm in the Navy for the long haul - but I'm going to bail on the discussion after these points. Feel free to critique me, my ideas, or whatever you do - I may PM you and I may ignore it. Please don't take it as I don't like. I think I see a lot of good points from all so far.

You can pull what you need from this exchange as I have - but I'm going to cherry pick with who I talk with from here based on the information that is of use to me now. I'm high seep low drag like that sometimes. Feel free to knock me from my soap box though.

I'll be around the Navy and I'm sure we'll cross paths again if the stars align.

I embrace the suck when I need too - But I don't endorse the creation of the suck just for the sake of doing so or to put a patch on something that isn't working.

Reality is we have a great DCO program already. The majority of DCOs meet and far exceeded standards with the two week school.

I'm honest with myself and others, so I'll even concede that the DCO program could be better and there are places for improvement. So if we are to fix something, let's not use a patch or the ODS school - Let's really fix it.

I don't think you guys that want a longer school are crazy. I do disagree with doing it and the logic used to justify the positions for the school. I also disagree with the outcomes that will occur from a longer school.

Recruiting is a delicate balance but reserve life is even more fragile. The net effect of this change to five weeks had better be twice as positive as what you think it will be because the net effect is going to be equally bad for recruiting and retention. We lose 10's of thousands of sailors every year on retention - some for the better and many not for the better.

On the recruiting side - Successful people with good jobs that want to serve aren't all in college. A month or more away from work is hard anytime in a career. Doing that three years in a row is ridiculous to expect from reservists or employers. And if you are looking for some of these folks to be career reservists and to stick around - add a few deployments - missed vacations, birthdays, cook outs for 20 years because of AT and drill weekends ect...

We get a lot out of the reserve but have not doubt - there's a tipping point. Less so for me - because I'm half way through the journey. But I see the tipping point coming more quickly than I have seen it come for sailors joining the reserve now, than that it has come in the past. That is not good news.

I ask - Who they hell needs another three weeks of suck on top of suck so that they can meet or exceed the standards they are already satisfying?

The people that benefit from this kind of extra training aren't going to get what they are missing from this extra three weeks and we are going to deter successful people that are past the college phase of life, that are balancing new careers, families ect. - from joining the reserve. You can chose to ignore this reality if suits your argument - but don't pretend that it isn't actually a reality.

The reserve life balance is real folks! More real than many other factors we are looking at and it deserves more consideration in any policy changes we are considering.

Ask any new selects how there accession process to the Navy has been and you find out it's been abysmal. Totally disorganized. So much so that many think already that joining the Navy has been a huge waste of time.

Several I've talked with have already contemplated bailing at or before the end of their obligation because the headache and the suck isn't worth what they give up to try to serve. These are smart capable people that are willing to serve, want to serve, and they rightfully feel jerked around by the Navy with NROWS, never being able to get dates for courses, nothing every getting done on the first try, ect.....

This is a place for the Navy and the people that run the Navy to listen too in order to best fix a problem that we all recognize. Not just a suck it up butter cup moment where we tell everyone how hard is was before their time.

I had a break is service so I have the benefit of seeing the big picture. I actually agree with the new accessions and you that the Navy admin and training process is broken. It is broken. I have never seen it more dysfunctional than it is now.

Everybody on this post should actually agree on the point that there is a problem with accession, because it is what we are all addressing here.

My two cents is adding suck on top of suck to fix the suck isn't the way to do this. I even concede that hardship and challenging situations have a place in the training process for all of us. For some - they really define us. For others - those experience hopefully also provide some meaningful training so that we can function better and perform under pressure on our journey. But, if the suck we add doesn't define us and provide meaningful training - it becomes real suck and that detracts from the Navy, morale, readiness, recruiting, and retention.

The ready members take time to get ready. That's reality. But we can always add suck on top of suck when we mobilize sailors. It's the best place to do it. Reservists, employers, and the Navy are best positioned to mitigate all that comes with training hardships with mobilizations. It's a natural spot to totally uproot sailors from their civilian lives and make them full time Navy.

I'll add too from a personal point of view - We are all getting little snapshots of each other's personalities on these blogs. I'm sure all of have quirks but are by and large good people. I like all of you.

It's easy to get one sided though. And that being said - in my mind - it's not fair to say don't criticize or try to understand the Navy's process -just embrace the suck like me - but then advocate for the changing the Navy's current policy in a way that suits your perspective in the same breath.

Without being overly critical here, the do as I say approach mindset negates the one thing we should all agree on - that there is a problem with accession because it is exactly what we are all addressing here.

I'm getting off topic here - but that logic doesn't work for me. It is do as a say not as I do leadership and far from what I know we all like to see best.

We want example! We want to lead by example and follow examples. Maybe even once in a while we get crazy and totally break the mold and try something new.... Innovation and change can actually be good.

Without being overly critical here, there is one thing we should all agree on - that there is a problem with accession because it is exactly what we are all addressing here.

I will let you know how the school goes for me. I'm off my soap box - but free to time travel when you read this and knock me off of it. I'm cherry picking from here on out to get what I need to get the two week school in and to work with people that are trying to work to accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish for a bit. You know - keeping it high speed low drag for a bit... I'll catch up with you all in time. I'll be around.

You are nuking this, it is 5 weeks instead of 2 in a long career if you make it to 20. Any non-DCO sailor looking at this from the outside would likely scratch their heads as to why folks would spill so much ink on such a minor change. An extra 3 weeks is nothing over a reserve career, even without MOB's and your required training schools.

A few specific things to address though:

Reality is we have a great DCO program already. The majority of DCOs meet and far exceeded standards with the two week school.

Do we really? DCO's might think so, others might disagree.

The ready members take time to get ready. That's reality. But we can always add suck on top of suck when we mobilize sailors. It's the best place to do it. Reservists, employers, and the Navy are best positioned to mitigate all that comes with training hardships with mobilizations. It's a natural spot to totally uproot sailors from their civilian lives and make them full time Navy.

Not only no but hell no. Getting folks up to speed on the Navy when mobilizing them is the absolute worst time to do that, reservists ain't usually hitting the ground running when getting MOB'd but the vast majority have some baseline of knowledge to build on. Right before sending them downrange to work billets possibly providing support to combat ops is not the time to make sure folks know how to pin their rank on right and area aware that something called the UCMJ exists and applies to them.

 

[Reservist]

Not only no but hell no. Getting folks up to speed on the Navy when mobilizing them is the absolute worst time to do that, reservists ain't usually hitting the ground running when getting MOB'd but the vast majority have some baseline of knowledge to build on. Right before sending them downrange to work billets possibly providing support to combat ops is not the time to make sure folks know how to pin their rank on right and area aware that something called the UCMJ exists and applies to them.
[/QUOTE]

There will always be a balance between accession and readiness. It does take time to get sailors ready to do jobs and it always has. I say even more so with reservists. I agree with you that reservists have a baseline of knowledge to build on when mob'd as it is now and I see little if any reason to make AT or initial training longer than it is. Reservists will get up to speed when called up.

In the meantime, how we train should be looked at, but with time and hardship with work ect... There's a balance.

How we do things matters. I even agree we need to do it better. I see no solution from this three weeks - I see hardship for decent people that will make fine DCO's anyway and something that will detract from the program ultimately. More time away from work means many successful people will stop before moving forward with taking the oath. It's a part time job. Successful capable people don't have time for this stuff is my position. Nor do good candidates need this this to become effective DCO's.

And there will always be a balance between recruiting and retention and the hardships that come with training and the reality of military life when uprooting part timers in the reserve. It is very challenging to recruit and even harder and getting harder all the time - to keep good reservists.

 

[Flash]

There will always be a balance between accession and readiness. It does take time to get sailors ready to do jobs and it always has. I say even more so with reservists. I agree with you that reservists have a baseline of knowledge to build on when mob'd as it is now and I see little if any reason to make AT or initial training longer than it is. Reservists will get up to speed when called up.

In the meantime, how we train should be looked at, but with time and hardship with work ect... There's a balance.

How we do things matters. I even agree we need to do it better. I see no solution from this three weeks - I see hardship for decent people that will make fine DCO's anyway and something that will detract from the program ultimately. More time away from work means many successful people will stop before moving forward with taking the oath. It's a part time job. Successful capable people don't have time for this stuff is my position. Nor do good candidates need this this to become effective DCO's.

And there will always be a balance between recruiting and retention and the hardships that come with training and the reality of military life when uprooting part timers in the reserve. It is very challenging to recruit and even harder and getting harder all the time - to keep good reservists.

Still nuking it.

More time away from work means many successful people will stop before moving forward with taking the oath. It's a part time job. Successful capable people don't have time for this stuff is my position. Nor do good candidates need this this to become effective DCO's.

Fine, so be it. Maybe the reserves isn't for them then.

And there will always be a balance between recruiting and retention and the hardships that come with training and the reality of military life when uprooting part timers in the reserve. It is very challenging to recruit and even harder and getting harder all the time - to keep good reservists.

Challenging to recruit DCO's? Have you not paid attention just how challenging it is to get selected for Navy DCO nowadays? Retention, a problem to a degree but not as much as you would think for designators like Intel.

Either way this frankly ain't much of an issue at all for the Navy, with reserve DCO's being a small subset of reserve officers which are already a small minority in the Navy. Or about a few hundred folks at most out of a Navy of over ~430,000 uniformed personnel. So yeah, pretty low on the Navy's give a shit list...though probably a little higher than getting F/A-18's ILS boxes so you've got that going for you.

 

[Reservist]

Still nuking it.



Fine, so be it. Maybe the reserves isn't for them then.



Challenging to recruit DCO's? Have you not paid attention just how challenging it is to get selected for Navy DCO nowadays? Retention, a problem to a degree but not as much as you would think for designators like Intel.

Either way this frankly ain't much of an issue at all for the Navy, with reserve DCO's being a small subset of reserve officers which are already a small minority in the Navy. Or about a few hundred folks at most out of a Navy of over ~430,000 uniformed personnel. So yeah, pretty low on the Navy's give a shit list...though probably a little higher than getting F/A-18's ILS boxes so you've got that going for you.

I appreciate the humor - lot's the Navy needs to do and do better.

 

[xmid]

The fact that @Reservist is about to have a brain aneurysm over the "hardship" imposed by an extra 3 weeks of training that the Navy has decided HE NEEDS, means we probably commissioned the wrong guy...

 

[Reservist]

The fact that @Reservist is about to have a brain aneurysm over the "hardship" imposed by an extra 3 weeks of training that the Navy has decided HE NEEDS, means we probably commissioned the wrong guy...

^ This right here - why I said I'd cherry pick. Dude probably thinks boogers are brain food.