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No weapons for E-4 and below on watch

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
I'm jumping in a little late on this one. The best firearms training I ever got . . . hands down . . . was from a bunch of SEAL's during a downed aviator CSAR-EX in Fallon a few years back. After reading this thread and observing "other" disturbing trends within DOD, my larger fear is this incessant need to keep cutting programs, procceses and procedures in an attempt to align DOD priorities with "current, fiscal realities." I've been watching this for a few years now . . . flight hours, ordnance expenditures, TEMAD budgets, the list goes on and on and on . . . . . . pretty soon we'll all be "virtual employees" of Uncle Sam's finest. xbox anyone ???
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
Having just gotten my pre-deployment gun qual last week, I haz some input.

I hadn't shot on a military range since my initial qual at Annapolis, in 2003. I did my required NKO "M9" course (took me a whole !@#$ing hour) the day prior and showed up to the shoot. I was given a 5 minute "gun fam" which basically consisted of, "point downrange at all times, here's the safety, here's the slide release, here's the trigger. Now, go load magazines!"

I then had to show everyone else how to load mags as people were literally loading the rounds in backwards (maybe they usually shoot HKs? ;)).

After that, we walk up to the 3 meter line. "Any questions before we start?" asks the RSO.
"What's the course of fire? What do we have to do?", says one O-4.

"I'll take you through a dry fire of all the phases," came the reply.

At which time they handed out M9's and told us to practice drawing and dry firing. About 2 minutes later, they handed us a pair of mags each and we started shooting. The RSO announced what we had to shoot about 3 seconds before he called "Fire!" for each phase. At one point, we had to shoot 2 rounds strong hand supported, swap hands and shoot 2 rounds weak hand supported. People started shooting one-handed and all the range coaches flipped $#!t. Nobody had any clue what was going on, including those of us who shoot regularly.

Why? Nobody had touched an M9 since at least last deployment, and all the online "training" we had received centered on how to field strip and reassemble M9's, not how to shoot them or what the qual shoot would require.

In an aviation squadron, pistol quals are viewed as just one more pre-deployment redass that effs up the flight schedule for a few days. And that's sad.
 

H60Gunner

Registered User
Contributor
I hadn't shot on a military range since my initial qual at Annapolis, in 2003. I did my required NKO "M9" course (took me a whole !@#$ing hour) the day prior and showed up to the shoot. I was given a 5 minute "gun fam" which basically consisted of, "point downrange at all times, here's the safety, here's the slide release, here's the trigger. Now, go load magazines!" .
That is friggn’ sad. As a holder of the coveted 0812 NEC and quite possibly the first AW to complete the course (a whole ‘nother story) that is some serious neglect. No sight picture? Breath control? Trigger squeeze? We spent at least one day in the classroom before every shoot.

I then had to show everyone else how to load mags as people were literally loading the rounds in backwards (maybe they usually shoot HKs? ;)).
After that, we walk up to the 3 meter line. "Any questions before we start?" asks the RSO.
"What's the course of fire? What do we have to do?", says one O-4.
"I'll take you through a dry fire of all the phases," came the reply.

Stuffing ammo backwards is fairly common for new folks. But you all should have known EXACTLY what the course of fire was.

At which time they handed out M9's and told us to practice drawing and dry firing. About 2 minutes later, they handed us a pair of mags each and we started shooting. The RSO announced what we had to shoot about 3 seconds before he called "Fire!" for each phase. At one point, we had to shoot 2 rounds strong hand supported, swap hands and shoot 2 rounds weak hand supported. People started shooting one-handed and all the range coaches flipped $#!t. Nobody had any clue what was going on, including those of us who shoot regularly. .
Very bad. Maybe this is old school but I taught to shoot weak hand unsupported. Best way is to cross the strong hand over your chest to keep it out of the way and shoot parallel. Again you guys should have known well in advance wft was going to happen.
Why? Nobody had touched an M9 since at least last deployment, and all the online "training" we had received centered on how to field strip and reassemble M9's, not how to shoot them or what the qual shoot would require. In an aviation squadron, pistol quals are viewed as just one more pre-deployment redass that effs up the flight schedule for a few days. And that's sad
I observed that first hand on my last tour in the Navy (2002). A P-3 squadron showed up on deployment, one crew was immediately detached out to a “remote” base. When they showed up they were turned around and told to go home because none of them had any weapons or were qualified to carry them. On that particular base, everyone was required to carry a weapon period. When they returned to their deployment site, I had the pleasure of qualifying the whole squadron + some MOCC tards. Basically unlimited ammo for me and all my friends! Stripping, cleaning and reassembling the weapons training occurs after the shoot, no one gets outa that!

Edit- My oldest kid is a bubble head nuke. He has been in for just under 3yrs and has his expert rifle and pistol medals............
 

SpaceApe29

Member
If you're going to do it right, you have to add all the goodies

IOTV - 35lbs
ACH - 3.5lbs
M249 - 22lbs (loaded)
M249 Ammo - 20lbs

Now, if you throw in a ruck/assault pack, you'll be having a good ol' time. :)
This is why I like catching a ride places. It beats the hell out of walking.

Add another 10lbs for ESAPI plates, add another 7 lbs per 60mm mortar round, and add that damn throat-choker for the IOTV while all this madness ensues and that was my last lovely tour to ass-ghanistan. But I digress.

All service members should have adequate small arms training. Period. If the Taliban actually manages to breach a parameter of a base like Bagram, Khandahar, or Kunduz guess who just became a field certified Infantryman. If we're in a country doing humanitarian missions and a warlord decides to raid an HLZ or Forward Air strip, again guess who just became an Infantryman.

I get it, not everyone in the military is a grunt but it'd be nice to know we (gruntlings) can pull a paper-pusher into our squads from any service in an emergency and repel an attack effectively.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
I get it, not everyone in the military is a grunt but it'd be nice to know we (gruntlings) can pull a paper-pusher into our squads from any service in an emergency and repel an attack effectively.
You sure you want to switch over to the blue, and not the OTHER green??
 

BusyBee604

St. Francis/Hugh Hefner Combo!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
All service members should have adequate small arms training. Period. If the Taliban actually manages to breach a parameter of a base like Bagram, Khandahar, or Kunduz guess who just became a field certified Infantryman. If we're in a country doing humanitarian missions and a warlord decides to raid an HLZ or Forward Air strip, again guess who just became an Infantryman.

I get it, not everyone in the military is a grunt but it'd be nice to know we (gruntlings) can pull a paper-pusher into our squads from any service in an emergency and repel an attack effectively.

SpaceApe - Good advice....+1. Every Sailor & Officer should have small arms training at least annually!:watching_
BzB
 

eas7888

Looking forward to some P-8 action
pilot
Contributor
Add another 10lbs for ESAPI plates, add another 7 lbs per 60mm mortar round, and add that damn throat-choker for the IOTV while all this madness ensues and that was my last lovely tour to ass-ghanistan. But I digress.

All service members should have adequate small arms training. Period. If the Taliban actually manages to breach a parameter of a base like Bagram, Khandahar, or Kunduz guess who just became a field certified Infantryman. If we're in a country doing humanitarian missions and a warlord decides to raid an HLZ or Forward Air strip, again guess who just became an Infantryman.

I get it, not everyone in the military is a grunt but it'd be nice to know we (gruntlings) can pull a paper-pusher into our squads from any service in an emergency and repel an attack effectively.

To be honest, I don't even think OUR training is adequate. I can't imagine what it's like for other branches.
 

SpaceApe29

Member
You sure you want to switch over to the blue, and not the OTHER green??

As much fun as it is being Airborne Infantry I grew up as a Navy brat and just want to come home. I've seen enough dirt and green tracers inbound. Lots of respect for Marines, I tried to join them first but the Army had the Warrant Officer Aviator program and I chose my path as such. I tried for 2 years to get into that but it's tough to get into now. Honestly I'd be just as happy on deck on a ship but Aviation is in the blood and if I can get there I'll keep trying.

@eas: sadly you're right. I'm used to getting a lot of range time because that's all we do. I'm about to disappear for another 2 months for more range time and ALC (BNCOC phase 2) and all we do is shoot. The best shooter in my platoon is one of my mechanics ironically.

There are ranges at most large airbases downrange, why not see if during downtime they can link up with the Army or Marine elements there to get training? We had our JTAC's (Airforce) at our ranges at Khandahar and they had a few aviation mechanics fire our weapons. We were glad to have them as training is what we NCO's love to do.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Very bad. Maybe this is old school but I taught to shoot weak hand unsupported. Best way is to cross the strong hand over your chest to keep it out of the way and shoot parallel. Again you guys should have known well in advance wft was going to happen.

Agreed. The point of shooting weak handed is to simulate some sort of incapacitating injury to your normal shooting hand.
 
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