Non DH SWO Signers? What do they do with you after your 2nd DIVO Tour??

[haubby]

So are the forced orders to DH School a scare tactic? Before I redesignated, my detailer told me that I was going to DH School unless I told them I was getting out of the Navy. This was in 2017 so times change but I can't imagine the retention for SWOs has gotten any better.

(Disclaimer: I have nothing against or ill will towards detailers)

I remember asking the same question to the divo detailers during a roadshow as an Ensign. A detailers sole purpose in life is to make you "competitive" for your next milestone. That's it. For SWO's that's to get you in DH school around 7.5 ycs so that your first look for O-4 has a ranked DH FITREP on a grey hull. They will continue to attempt to make you competitive by trying to give you "career enhancing" jobs every job post DH tours based off your DH FITREPS so you have every possible chance at CO Afloat. And that will continue for major command, etc. Their road shows PowerPoint never talks about the off ramps and those that are NDC. They will not answer questions about off ramps in big groups but normally will individually.

If you aren't beholden to the bonus, they have no ammunition to send you to DH school. We certainly would not prefer an Officer who doesn't want to be DH, to be a serving DH. We already have enough of those Officers who took the bonus. When these types of situations come across the email or phones of the detailer, it doesn't fit the mold of you becoming a CO, so they get a little shook sometimes. You have to be very clear on your intent and understand the ramifications of your request. Once they know you understand, then you can move forward.

I fully intend to retire in a couple years on this post DH shore tour. I got exactly what I wanted and can continue to support the fleet albeit non-DH working hours. My billet is considered competitive for my next milestone but because I'm already past 20 years and signaled my intent to retire to my detailer, I was detailed individually and outside of the slating process. This was to prevent me from going to a DESRON/PHIBRON. It's all about communication sprinkled with a little timing.

 

[Spekkio]

A detailers sole purpose in life is to make you "competitive" for your next milestone. That's it....

If you aren't beholden to the bonus, they have no ammunition to send you to DH school. We certainly would not prefer an Officer who doesn't want to be DH, to be a serving DH.

I fully intend to retire in a couple years on this post DH shore tour... because I'm already past 20 years and signaled my intent to retire to my detailer, I was detailed individually and outside of the slating process...

In principle you are correct (sort of) regarding the detailers wanting to make you upwardly mobile and not being fully transparent on off-ramps, but you're giving some bad gouge. The notion that a line officer, let alone a post-DIVO, can refuse sea duty orders and hang around on a cushy shore duty for years on end isn't a thing. In your case, you were retirement eligible post-DH so that changed the equation quite a bit.

The 'off ramps' for a post JO are to lateral transfer, resign, or retire. Refusing orders to an operational billet without an approved resignation or retirement leads to negative administrative repercussions that can include separation for cause, which future employers can see. Technically, it could result in Court Martial and imprisonment, but that's extremely unlikely to happen.

This is why detailers essentially tell people that it's DH or resign. Where it gets gray is when someone submits a resignation late (ie after 9 mo before the detailer starts the slating process). After some hard ball they might let you resign and that will buy you an extra year of shore duty, but depending on who is running PERS at the time they could write you orders and tell you suck it up or face SFC.

Were you not retirement eligible in your situation and still due course, your detailer would have been significantly less willing to work with you to give you what you wanted.

 

[Hair Warrior]

which future employers can see

Where I work (DoD/IC big tech firm with >10k employees), we wouldn’t see this, nor would we care if we could see it.

But I am probably an outlier as a hiring mgr because I intimately know of military shenanigans and what is and isn’t relevant to civilian employment. We have a hard enough time filling positions and as long as I can see you in DISS/Scattered, you have a minimum skill level, you’re willing to go onsite, and you aren’t a toxic person, we can put you to work. Everyone who works under me makes >6 figures so this isn’t some chop shop staff aug scenario, either.

 

[Spekkio]

Where I work (DoD/IC big tech firm with >10k employees), we wouldn’t see this, nor would we care if we could see it.

The type of separation is listed on a DD214, so your company absolutely can see it if it wanted to.

It's weird to me that your company doesn't care if it hires people who were kicked out of the military, but ok.

 

[Hair Warrior]

The type of separation is listed on a DD214. It's weird to me that your company doesn't care if it hires people who were kicked out of the military, but ok.

To my knowledge, we don’t have any HR hiring questions about getting fired from previous jobs, nor do we ask to see DD214s. If someone does ask, they don’t let hiring mgrs see the info they collect.

If their military separation is a huge deal, it may come up on a SF-86, SCI crossover, polygraph, or PSQ review. And if the govt says “no clearance for this person” that is when it would matter for their civ job.

 

[Spekkio]

If their military separation is a huge deal, it may come up on a SF-86, SCI crossover, polygraph, or PSQ review. And if the govt says “no clearance for this person” that is when it would matter for their civ job.

Well, there you go. Checking the DD214 is baked into the extensive background check your company does.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Well, there you go. Checking the DD214 is baked into the extensive background check your company does.

FWIW, there is a background check but it’s done by a third party and I have no idea how deep or superficial it is. My guess is they just look for open arrest warrants and prior convictions by SSN using commercially available background check services. I have never heard of someone being denied employment from it. YMMV when dealing with private sector employers.

 

[haubby]

I absolutely agree there is very little to zero percent probability an officer can stay on shore duty up until they FOS becuase they do not want to go back to sea. No argument there. What I have personally seen is one of my peers who did not take the bonus, had no desire to be a DH and worked out with PERS a path for him to stay in the Navy for almost three more years, and not at sea. At the end of that tour he did separate, affiliated with the reserves and is still doing his thing. I can only assume that was part of his conversations with his detailer was that he intended to separate at the end of that tour.

What I'm trying to get across is it's a honest conversation with the detailer. You never what the outcome can be if you never ask. It may work, or not and it may just be bad timing.

I do not know of any recent SWO that is currently a serving DH that didn't take the bonus. Most who couldn't stand being a SWO either got out at the end of their sea tours or shore tour. And then their are a few who get out after their DH rides and do something else.

Edit: In recent experience with how they slate divos now, if you do not take the bonus, you can be guaranteed to go to a DESRON/PHIBRON or something undesirable. You could be the number 1 Divo onboard and without the bonus, you will be racked and stacked under the dirt bag JO who did take the bonus. Just the way it is now.

 

[Hair Warrior]

So what I’m gathering from the discussion is that, if you’re a SWO, the realistic choices (that don’t require a detailer’s charity) are to get out, redes, or take the DH bonus.

 

[haubby]

So what I’m gathering from the discussion is that, if you’re a SWO, the realistic choices (that don’t require a detailer’s charity) are to get out, redes, or take the DH bonus

Very much so. That is the path.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Very much so. That is the path.

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

Warfare Tactics Instructor is another path you can go, too.

My significant other (SWO-N) turned down DHRB following her second JO tour, applied for the Anti-Submarine/Anti-Surface WTI program and got it. Obviously, she then had to go through a legitimately difficult 3-month course, but now she's on shore duty in San Diego and is home almost every night at a reasonable time (1600-1630). There's a fair bit of TAD travel (ranging from a couple days to a couple weeks) involved in the job, too, if that's your thing.

We aren't married yet, so for anyone who might think that was a factor - it wasn't.

 

[AllAmerican75]

Warfare Tactics Instructor is another path you can go, too.

My significant other (SWO-N) turned down DHRB following her second JO tour, applied for the Anti-Submarine/Anti-Surface WTI program and got it. Obviously, she then had to go through a legitimately difficult 3-month course, but now she's on shore duty in San Diego and is home almost every night at a reasonable time (1600-1630). There's a fair bit of TAD travel (ranging from a couple days to a couple weeks) involved in the job, too, if that's your thing.

We aren't married yet, so for anyone who might think that was a factor - it wasn't.

How years of commissioned service does she have? Again, the ideal flow point to DH school is about 7.5 years of commissioned service. Even if she is a WTI, it does not mean she won't go to DH school or receive orders. I'm not sure how she got WTI orders without signing the bonus considering a few years ago you had to commit to DH school/sign the bonus to get WTI orders. Are you sure she wasn't talking about the nuke bonus? Did she get de-nuked?

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

How years of commissioned service does she have? Again, the ideal flow point to DH school is about 7.5 years of commissioned service. Even if she is a WTI, it does not mean she won't go to DH school or receive orders. I'm not sure how she got WTI orders without signing the bonus considering a few years ago you had to commit to DH school/sign the bonus to get WTI orders. Are you sure she wasn't talking about the nuke bonus? Did she get de-nuked?

I know of at least one 1110 who did the WTI thing without signing the DH bonus. She resigned after her WTI tour.

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

How years of commissioned service does she have? Again, the ideal flow point to DH school is about 7.5 years of commissioned service. Even if she is a WTI, it does not mean she won't go to DH school or receive orders. I'm not sure how she got WTI orders without signing the bonus considering a few years ago you had to commit to DH school/sign the bonus to get WTI orders. Are you sure she wasn't talking about the nuke bonus? Did she get de-nuked?

She just hit 6 years, with a little less than 2 left on contract and about 2.5 left on her orders to SMWDC.

She did turn down DHRB. Was never de-nuked and indeed completed PNEO towards the end of her 2nd JO tour. The WTI program needs people and currently sits at about a 93% acceptance rate.

That plus some sympathy from the monitor (but again, nothing tying the Navy’s hands) and an honestly well above-average record snagged her the billet she’s in now.