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north vietnamese aces

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor

have russian mig drivers flying for the north ever been formally reported/documented.?

I've read both yes and no. I think the VPAF as claimed they never flew combat missions while the Russians have said otherwise. So who knows.

This book is an excellent account of the air-to-air war in Vietnam and the author says that the Vietnamese were very nationalistic when it came to flying their aircraft to defend the homeland and that reports of Russian pilots doing some of the fighting are not reliable. He relies on quite a bit of declassified US info that included info about communications intercepts, with the GCI dependent VPAF it would pretty authoritative on the subject.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I have no doubt that Soviets trained the North Vietnamese, and maybe once or twice they may have ended up in a fight by pure chance, but I'd be willing to bet that there'd be extensive SIGINT on them if they participated in a significant number of combat flights. I doubt that many Russian pilots spoke fluent Vietnamese. Politics or not, I'd suspect that this would've been briefed to our pilots had it been known.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
This book is an excellent account of the air-to-air war in Vietnam and the author says that the Vietnamese were very nationalistic when it came to flying their aircraft to defend the homeland and that reports of Russian pilots doing some of the fighting are not reliable. He relies on quite a bit of declassified US info that included info about communications intercepts, with the GCI dependent VPAF it would pretty authoritative on the subject.


Hells yeah. I read that book on deployment and it was very interesting, especially in its discussion of fluid four vs. loose deuce and USAF vs. USN tactics.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I have no doubt that Soviets trained the North Vietnamese, and maybe once or twice they may have ended up in a fight by pure chance, but I'd be willing to bet that there'd be extensive SIGINT on them if they participated in a significant number of combat flights. I doubt that many Russian pilots spoke fluent Vietnamese. Politics or not, I'd suspect that this would've been briefed to our pilots had it been known.

I see I probably need to read that book.

As an aside, you would not believe what "we" knew... or at least our spooks knew, that was never passed on to we operators!

Gen. Old's book Fighter Pilot talks angrily about how they were kept in the dark from needed intel that should have been available to our crews, and I learned of it first hand in late 1972. Apparently what "we" knew was too classified to tell the guys fighting in the arena, who really had a life-and-death need to know, for fear of the Soviets learning of our yet unknown intel capabilities.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
This book is an excellent account of the air-to-air war in Vietnam and the author says that the Vietnamese were very nationalistic when it came to flying their aircraft to defend the homeland and that reports of Russian pilots doing some of the fighting are not reliable. He relies on quite a bit of declassified US info that included info about communications intercepts, with the GCI dependent VPAF it would pretty authoritative on the subject.

Yeah, very good book and information. Have it in my library. Another great book that is well researched and discusses every Navy engagement in the war. Talks about the 8-9 extra Mig kills that are not officially credited and why there were not.

http://www.amazon.com/Killers-Yanke...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332594995&sr=1-1
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
Gen. Old's book Fighter Pilot talks angrily about how they were kept in the dark from needed intel that should have been available to our crews...

I Have a Secret. The thrilling board game played by far too many in the government...including the DoD. The one thing that's been made abundantly clear during my journey is that I Have a Secret is on par with that other Family Game Night favorite, Death and Taxes.

I try my best not to be part of the problem. You know, the trusty old "What do I know? Who needs to know it? Have I told them?" guidance...
 

The Chief

Retired
Contributor
have russian mig drivers flying for the north ever been formally reported/documented.?

Yes, many times, "in channels". Of course the "instructors" always spoke Vietnamese but with a very distinct Balto-slavic accent. I spent most of 1965 thru 1969 on Yankee Station, PIRAZ and Da Nang/Monkey Mountain.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I see I probably need to read that book.

As an aside, you would not believe what "we" knew... or at least our spooks knew, that was never passed on to we operators!

Gen. Old's book Fighter Pilot talks angrily about how they were kept in the dark from needed intel that should have been available to our crews, and I learned of it first hand in late 1972. Apparently what "we" knew was too classified to tell the guys fighting in the arena, who really had a life-and-death need to know, for fear of the Soviets learning of our yet unknown intel capabilities.

That is a very big point in the book, that critical information was not passed to aircrews in the thick of the fight because they 'did not need to know'. The author details that and other C2 issues that we limited ourselves with in the book, ones that I had not realized were a factor and are usually overlooked in other books about the air war. I imagine some might be familiar with some of the issues but others might be revelations to you and your comrades who fought the war.

Fortunately we have gotten a lot better about who 'needs to know' things, not perfect by any means but a lot better than was described in that book.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
That is a very big point in the book, that critical information was not passed to aircrews in the thick of the fight because they 'did not need to know'. The author details that and other C2 issues that we limited ourselves with in the book, ones that I had not realized were a factor and are usually overlooked in other books about the air war. I imagine some might be familiar with some of the issues but others might be revelations to you and your comrades who fought the war.

Fortunately we have gotten a lot better about who 'needs to know' things, not perfect by any means but a lot better than was described in that book.

TINS...... While in the Gulf of Tonkin, my RIO and I were heloed over to the USS Truxton, which was serving as Red Crown at the time. We spent two days aboard, with much of our time talking to their OS controllers on how to bag a MiG.

Talking to the Chief in CIC, he casually mentioned how they translated the North Vietnamese pilots' radio transmissions. We did know of this. But what we did not know was they were doing it in real time! We had no idea; it was information we all should have been told. But there was more as we found out. The Vietnamese were doing the same thing – real time translations of our tactical calls. The difference was the bad guys relayed to their pilots our airborne tactical transmissions, but we never were given theirs. Nor did we know of that capability.

So..... With this "new" knowledge I briefed my next flight centered on deception. Using certain code words, we would complain deceptively about our missiles not tuning, a bent radar, and possibly a fuel leak while on Mig-Cap.

Sure enough, our transmitted bait worked! Soon two blue bandits (MiG 21s) popped up out of Kep coming straight for us and fast. Unfortunately as we instinctively then started transmitting aggressively - "Cats, cross-turn now!" "Buster," etc. Unfortunately the MiGs obviously were relayed this and quickly did a 180 back to Kep and out of range.
 

blackbart22

Well-Known Member
pilot
Re the real time translations: at a debrief for the night that the two MiG-21s came south and fired a missile at the BUFFs, I was told that the reason that no one got excited when they headed south was that the real time translator translated their controler's transmission as " Don't be nervous, it's only practice." A later translation of the tape showed that what he really said was " Don't be nervous, it's just like practice."
 
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