NROTC/USNA Questions

[redmidgrl]

Well, if he reapplies to the Academy during his freshman year at PSU, they may offer him a straight appointment to the Academy without the Foundation because they will see that he has college credits (even though they do not count toward the Academy), he is more likely to validate classes at the Academy, and thus, it would be almost equivalent to a year with the Foundation.

I don't know what will happen, but I still say NROTC.

PLUS, Nuclear OC is right, the pay is better--I went home for Winter Break and my father asked: "Who sends their daughter to college and she comes home with more money than when she left?" Now I can use all the money that I saved from working three jobs for college, and put it towards a nice car or apartment ;-)

Fly Navy! LG

 

[Schnugg]

While I have been here, there have been many situations in which I have thought to myself wow, if I had gone to the Academy, I could not be doing this right now...
-Becoming really good friends with upperclassmen and friendly with professors,
-Dating other students at my school,
-Internships and Jobs,
-Going off campus whenever I feel like it,
-Knowing I'm having a blast and ending up in the same position as the Academy (insert ROTC here) crowd...

Not sure where you're getting the bad gouge....but you actually have a life at USNA. A pretty damn good one, too. All of the above are very capable and do occur. But as with any academy you get more priveledges each year.

So you base your "if I had gone to the Academy" comparison on what experience?
r/
G

 

[redmidgrl]

Of course you have a life at the Academy. I'm not saying it's better or worse, but it is certainly different. Where ever one ends up, he/she will adapt to it and make the best of it. I'll still see you in the fleet. LG

 

[smittyrunr]

I too had to choose between the Academy and NROTC. The main reason I chose NROTC was the fact that GW is known for my major in International Politics, and while the Academy offers Political Science it was not what I really wanted my degree in.

While I have been here, there have been many situations in which I have thought to myself wow, if I had gone to the Academy, I could not be doing this right now...
-Becoming really good friends with upperclassmen and friendly with professors,
-Dating other students at my school,
-Internships and Jobs,
-Going off campus whenever I feel like it,
-Knowing I'm having a blast and ending up in the same position as the Academy crowd...

Not sure where you're getting your information either, but I'll go ahead and specifically dispute it:
1. As a plebe, no, you are not going to be "really good friends with upperclassmen." It's about learning the differences of rank. You shouldn't be "really good friends" with your sailors either. The professor at USNA that I couldn't seek out for extra help in class or otherwise was the exception to the rule. I had several instructors, both military and civilian, whom I admire greatly and keep in touch with. They set the highest examples of personal and professional conduct and any mid was able to seek out their advice.
2. Dating other students... ok, plebes can't date upperclass, see above. You can't date within your company... just like you can't date within your ship/squadron/command. Plebes may date each other and upperclass may date other upperclass. Sure, sometimes things happen, and if there's a serious relationship (other than plebe-upperclass) special request chits are available.
3. Jobs, well no, being at the Academy is your job. Internships, however are another story. I had a wonderful engineering internship at Pax River. Academy mids have done medical, government, and political science internships. The opportunities are there. I'll also go out on a limb here and say the other leadership opportunities including summer seminar, plebe detail, YP squadron, etc can't be found elsewhere. Sure, some 20 year olds get a power trip with the slightest bit of responsibility, but the vast majority learn quite a bit.
4. Going off campus... sure, liberty sucks as a plebe, it was never really all that bad after that.

I'd say the best reason you posted was that the Academy didn't offer the major you are interested in- a fine reason to choose another option.

Second thing I want to say, about the money- if you're making a decision about USNA vs NROTC based on the stipend, you're in the wrong business entirely. Maybe a current mid can be more specific, because I know they changed the pay system when I was a 1/C, but plebes get about $75-100 cash a month, it goes up from there. etnuclearsailor- you make it sound like USNA only ever gets $100 a month- not correct. Your uniform and computer loan is pretty much paid off by youngster year, after that you get a decent amount of cash each month. My take home pay 2/C and 1/C years was between $200 and $500... and I know they're getting more now because there have been pay raises and they aren't taking money out for books any longer.

Thanks for letting me get all this out there.

 

[a_m]

The pay right now is
4/C - $100 a month
3/C - $200 a month
2/c - $300 a month
1/c - $400 a month

All the excess goes to paying off the loans and flex pay for later. It is nice to see the occassional paycheck of $1350 when the flex pay is released along with book money.

 

[redmidgrl]

Okay, maybe you misunderstood, when I said become friends with upperclassmen, I didn't mean the ones in NROTC, I meant the Juniors and Seniors at your college. Sorry for not being specific enough.

Money certainly didn't do it for me. My scholarship had to transfer from another school, so I was going in as a college programmer--didn't matter to me...

LG

 

[etnuclearsailor]

Yeah, you have a life at the Academy... at least 1/C's do. ALL NROTC Midshipmen can go out afternoons/weekends/holidays without special request chits. My friend is a prior service Plebe, and he is looking forward to coming years because Plebe year SUCKS. And, it does good things for your sanity to have local friends who AREN'T Navy.

 

[DanMa1156]

Thanks everyone for the advice, I really really appreciate it. I certainly am not considering the stipend at all in my decision making process. I realize that as an officer, I am not going to be making a considerable amount of money, but like the LTJG said, I'd be in the wrong business if that's what I was looking for.

Right now, to be completely honest, as hard as it is to give up that scholarship to Penn State, I'm leaning towards the Academy -- it's where I've always pictured myself, and I've been able to talk to some mids I met at Summer Seminar and some graduates (thanks, you know who you are) as well. I personally don't think I'd be able to live with myself knowing that all I had to do for a year was keep up A's and B's and I'd be able to get into the Academy, although I still have not made my decision. I am sure NROTC is like this as well, but I know that everything has a purpose at the Academy and there is a reason why Plebe Year sucks. But again, it's just a year, and thousands before me have gone through it. If the admissions board decided to invest in me, they must have thought I could handle those four years, not to mention the alumni who run the Foundation who will be investing in me as well.

Just to clear things up, from a pure odds standpoint, Foundation is a much better route to the Academy. The 5% or so that don't get in from Foundation are generally people who voluntarilly dropped out of the program or developed a medical condition preventing them from entering the Naval Service, while a few do screw up academically. In the letters I've gotten from Foundation, somewhere in it, it did mention doing a year of NROTC and then re-applying. It noted that only about 22% or something like that of re- applicants to the Academy from NROTC make it. I've also read that it's harder to get a congressional nomination because the government has already invested money in me. So just based on pure statistics, Foundation is a better route to the Academy. It's a rough choice, but I'm glad that one way or another I will one day become an officer.

Again, keep up all the advice and all the comments, I truly appreciate it, and thank you for all the ones you have all made already. I'm still hoping for a Direct Appointment, but I know that a year of preparation in calc and chem (again), will help me out.

 

[DanMa1156]

*** I can't delete posts. I really didn't need to post this.****

LoL... I've had the same problem. You are forgiven!

But hell, look at it like you got your 100th post! :icon_tong

EDIT: I guess you were able to delete it. Now I look like a moron.

 

[nittany03]

I'll put in my two cents as a former Penn State mid. Some of this has been hashed out already, but GO ROTC, at least for a year. I was in similar shoes to yours at the end of high school. My Grandfather was USNA class of 1941, a mustang sub officer back in WWII. I was rejected from the Naval Academy (my first choice) and bummed out about having to go to a civilian college for a year before I could reapply. Every ROTC unit can send 2 mids a year to Annapolis, and my freshman advisor told me straight up that if I still wanted to go there, he'd help me if I busted my ass. I ended up staying ROTC, but the opportunity was there. I decided it wasn't for me.

Here's my rationale looking back. Your college years are a unique part of your life, no matter what school. Trust me, you'll miss them when they're gone (damn that sounded like an old fart). There's much non-military-related to experience at a civilian college, ESPECIALLY a big school like PSU, that will enrich your time. This includes a wider variety of people to interact with, a wider variety of classes to take, and a wider variety of ways to screw up. You'll learn a little of how to relate to the civilian world and yes, deal with those a$$holes who think we're all a bunch of baby-killers. You're in uniform amongst the civilian population, not locked away in Bancroft Hall. Side benefit to THAT is it's also a whole lot easier to blow off steam, whatever it is you do to do that.

The military aspect is still there, just not 24/7, which in its own way is good. In your military career you'll be out in the real world anyway, and won't wear the uniform 24/7. Don't think that you won't get a quality education in what it takes to be a military officer. You will. Penn State NROTC staff was for the most part top notch during my time there.

However, much of ROTC is what you make of it. You can do the minimum and coast by, or you can grab it by the balls and get a lot out of it. If you want challenge at Penn State, take a technical major, join Basic Drill and PT with the Marines and the SPECWAR folks. That's plenty on your plate for one year. It's also the way to get noticed if you're looking to reapply to Annapolis. And those As and Bs come a lot harder in college than in high school, especially in Physics and Calc, trust me. I've been out of the loop for a couple years, but PM me if you want any Penn State related gouge, I can give you the names of some others on the board to talk to.

Bottom line, I'd take the scholarship. Go to PSU, go through the Gap and then decide if you want 7 more weeks of that crap (which would be Plebe Summer at the Academy). Go live in East Halls with 1700 other crazy 18-year-olds. Then go to a PSU football game and decide if you'd rather spend fall Fridays in your SDBs, or with 106,000 of your closest friends and a party waiting afterwards. Then spend the rest of the year in NROTC at a real college. If you still want the Academy at the end of that, the only one keeping you from it is you. The word you got on statistics is news to me; I was under the impression that NROTC had an in with Annapolis. That said, work hard and the unit will put you there. The heck with 22%; your chances of making it to Annapolis are either 100% or nothing, and it's all on you. If you decide to change your mind, then your commission comes a year early and it's written on the same paper as the guys from Canoe U.

 

[petescheu]

DanMav-
Two things i don't think anyone has really touched on... go to The Academy and you'll come out of there with friends you'll keep for rest of your life. Spending four years of shared misery and triumphs (at times) with the same 30 kids builds a bond that you can't get anywhere else, hands down. When you get out of there you'll always be running into Academy kids that you know non stop no matter where you end up; OCS and ROTC just can't say the same, at least not to the same degree. Also, as a 3/C, 2/C, 1/C Mid you practice leadership every day you are at school with your squad (or company, batt, reg, brigade, etc as a 1/C). Leadership experiences i don't think you can get anywhere else... not saying ROTC doesn't offer it, just that it's not on the same scale.
Not to mention USNA has some of the top rated engineering programs in the country... just some things to think about.

 

[etnuclearsailor]

HAHHAHAHA Canoe U... That cracks me up.
It looks like someone gave me the hook up on deleting my post. I changed my mind. I'm gonna explain MY rationale and let you realize it has nothing to do with your situation.
Getting into the Academy out of the enlisted nuclear pipeline with my grades would be a breeze. Getting into STA 21 was a slimmer hope. But, I decided I liked my car, I liked my clothes, and I liked my paycheck. With STA 21, I get to keep all of those. This is effectively why I chose ROTC (STA 21) over the Academy. I'll get commissioned the same year, even though I had to wait an extra year to start STA21.
The REAL 100th post. Honor me!!!

 

[DanMa1156]

HAHHAHAHA Canoe U... That cracks me up.
It looks like someone gave me the hook up on deleting my post. I changed my mind. I'm gonna explain MY rationale and let you realize it has nothing to do with your situation.
Getting into the Academy out of the enlisted nuclear pipeline with my grades would be a breeze. Getting into STA 21 was a slimmer hope. But, I decided I liked my car, I liked my clothes, and I liked my paycheck. With STA 21, I get to keep all of those. This is effectively why I chose ROTC (STA 21) over the Academy. I'll get commissioned the same year, even though I had to wait an extra year to start STA21.
The REAL 100th post. Honor me!!!

**HONOR GIVEN** (lol :icon_mi_1 )

Well, I have no car, and I like the uniform (although I've been told I'll regret saying that), so I'm not sure how much either of those play into it, especially knowing I wouldn't be able to use a car for much of my time there anyways. I'm still undecided, just leaning Foundation. But here's some of my rationale:

I question what do I want to be. The answer to that is simple: a Naval Officer. Then I ask, what is it that Naval Officers do? The simple answer to that is, they lead. So then I must ask, where do I go to become the best possible leader? The answer to that seems to me like the Academy. Not to discredit NROTC, I know they produce same caliber officers and leaders, but like shoo24 said:

Also, as a 3/C, 2/C, 1/C Mid you practice leadership every day you are at school with your squad (or company, batt, reg, brigade, etc as a 1/C). Leadership experiences i don't think you can get anywhere else... not saying ROTC doesn't offer it, just that it's not on the same scale.

I can't say thank you enough for all the help everyone has given me, but I hope you all understand how much I appreciate all your input.

 

[pennst8]

Dan,
If you haven't done so, come visit Penn State. Stop by the unit, we'll show you around and you can hang out w/ some of the MIDN to see what life is like around here. It might make your decision easier if you find out that you really like or hate it here.

No matter what you choose, you can't make a bad decision... it might be a tough choice but you win either way.

 

[USN99]

Touching but relevant?

DanMav-
Two things i don't think anyone has really touched on... go to The Academy and you'll come out of there with friends you'll keep for rest of your life.




Also, as a 3/C, 2/C, 1/C Mid you practice leadership every day you are at school with your squad (or company, batt, reg, brigade, etc as a 1/C). Leadership experiences i don't think you can get anywhere else... not saying ROTC doesn't offer it, just that it's not on the same scale.




Not to mention USNA has some of the top rated engineering programs in the country... just some things to think about.

Very, very true and all that about shared misery stuff. And if you find that persuasive, go for it.


It does occur to me that the academy structures we have today are creations of the 19th century. Back then the U.S. was a minor military and naval power (except briefly during our Civil War) and there was no infrastructure solution other than to centralize the professional preparation of officers. The solution was exceptional and it came with the added efficiency of allowing the upperclass persons to "practice leadership" on the lower classpersons. There was little or no attendant costs to provide any other experimental environment to "practice leadership". Now it is the 21st century. If a new Ensign thinks they can impose the aforementioned 19th century leadership formula on sailors, they are headed for rocks and shoals. Moreover, the entire U.S. military is unique on the world stage for having an exceptional core of NCOs/CPOs. They are good, they are professionals. If a new Ensign thinks they can be successful without them, they are headed for a much more difficult and much less rewarding professional experience. That being said, practice is practice and has some intrinsic value but practicing repeatedly an increasingly obsolescent leadership regimen should be kept in some perspective and not over-glamorized. I am thinking of the person that just finished hitting themselves repeatedly with a hammer and announced how good it felt when it stopped. You gotta ask, what was the reason for all that misery in the first place. Was there some compelling value involved?