NTSB turns up the heat on Colgan Air

[nittany03]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/nyregion/14pilot.html?em

For those who don't remember, the NTSB is conducting hearings into the commuter crash in Buffalo that killed 50-odd people. Seems to me that the powers-that-be are grilling Colgan Air about using inexperienced pilots flying for peanuts, and the resulting ORM nightmare.

Even more important, it seems that the media is now getting wind of this and contrasting a junior pilot's buffoonery with Captain Sullenberger's performance over the Hudson. Perhaps the bean-counters will finally lose out in the name of safety. Thoughts?

 

[AJTranny]

One of those dateline-type shows did a good piece on the Colgan issue last night. I think they did a solid job of revealing the shit wages=inexperienced, potentially shitty pilot equation. Also, they showed a new stat that less than 25 percent of company guys are ex-military as opposed to 85 percent not too long ago. Of course the numbers are a
little skewed since that number includes the explosion of commuter/regional bubbas in recent years

 

[incubus852]

One of my friends here in Meridian used to be a regional airline pilot. His stories about the amazing lack of stick skills / dependance on technology / basic crummy pilotage are frightening.

Regardless, I don't really understand what exactly happened in this crash. Anyone care to sum it up succinctly? I refuse to watch CNN etc. and try and figure it out, because of all the monday-morning quarterbacking / analysts who don't know what they're talking about.

 

[nittany03]

One of my friends here in Meridian used to be a regional airline pilot. His stories about the amazing lack of stick skills / dependance on technology / basic crummy pilotage are frightening.

Regardless, I don't really understand what exactly happened in this crash. Anyone care to sum it up succinctly? I refuse to watch CNN etc. and try and figure it out, because of all the monday-morning quarterbacking / analysts who don't know what they're talking about.

Well, the NTSB will come up with the definitive "what happened." That said, according to news media reports, PIC basically hamfisted the A/C into deep stall, overriding both stick shaker and stick pusher in the process. Copilot raised flaps while he was doing so, according to the transcript of the cockpit voice recorder.

 

[yak52driver]

One of my friends here in Meridian used to be a regional airline pilot. His stories about the amazing lack of stick skills / dependance on technology / basic crummy pilotage are frightening.

Regardless, I don't really understand what exactly happened in this crash. Anyone care to sum it up succinctly? I refuse to watch CNN etc. and try and figure it out, because of all the monday-morning quarterbacking / analysts who don't know what they're talking about.

I was talking to a Delta captain today. He told me regionals are starting pilots at $15K a year. Before the big hiring boom went bust, regionals were hiring people with instrument/commercial only ratings and 200 hours of flight time. This was bound to happen and will again if the airlines don't change their ways.

 

[nittany03]

How do they get away with hiring people without an ATP? Or is the Captain the only one who needs an ATP according to the FARs?

 

[puck_11]

Regardless, I don't really understand what exactly happened in this crash. Anyone care to sum it up succinctly? I refuse to watch CNN etc. and try and figure it out, because of all the monday-morning quarterbacking / analysts who don't know what they're talking about.

I am still trying to weed through it, but they had picked up a lot of ice on the wings during the approach. The airplane eventually stalled and crashed. The stall may have been a result in the crew leveling off and leaving the throttles at idle, bleeding off airspeed. Eventually the stickshaker went off and pushed forward to attempt to regain airspeed, which the pilot counteracted and pulled back on the stick. The pilot either did that due to lack of training on that system, or he believed that it was a stab stall (due to ice, which pulling back is the correct procedure). We probably will never know.

Excellent article though, finally bringing light to the shit wages they pay at the regionals. Oh, you can't live off $18,000 a year while trying to pay off $100,000 in loans for flight training and living in an area with a high cost of living?

 

[yak52driver]

How do they get away with hiring people without an ATP? Or is the Captain the only one who needs an ATP according to the FARs?

He told me they run them through training in sims to get them the rest of the ratings they need for right seat. I'm sure some of the folks on here flying for the airlines can confirm or deny.

 

[Krafty1]

That is what has pissed me off from day one regarding this crash. I haven't seen an article yet that mentions the possibility of a tail-plane stall due to icing. Maybe it didn't happen, maybe it did. The article I read awhile back in USA Today really ticked me off when they basically insinuated the pilots were dumb and flew the incorrect stall recovery procedure and never mentioned that the recovery procedure is relative to the type of stall they encountered. I'm not saying the crew did everything correctly that is for the powers that be to decide but I can't stand when alternative views are not presented in articles such as this.

Edit: The plus side, the NY Times article here leads me to believe the NTSB and FAA are looking at a very big problem. I hope they handle it well and do what needs to be done for the pilots and the interest of saftey, whatever that might be.

 

[nittany03]

That is what has pissed me off from day one regarding this crash. I haven't seen an article yet that mentions the possibility of a tail-plane stall due to icing. Maybe it didn't happen, maybe it did. The article I read awhile back in USA Today really ticked me off when they basically insinuated the pilots were dumb and flew the incorrect stall recovery procedure and never mentioned that the recovery procedure is relative to the type of stall they encountered. I'm not saying the crew did everything correctly that is for the powers that be to decide but I can't stand when alternative views are not presented in articles such as this.

There were news articles discussing the possibility of a tailplane stall shortly after the accident, and then that the NTSB ruled this out as a causal factor.

Links citing tailplane icing as a causal factor:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/02/how-does-ice-br/
http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/02/one_more_possibility_in_the_bu.php

Link showing that this theory is beginning to be cast in doubt:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wa...ns/2009/03/black_box_provides_new_theory.html

Maybe the PIC did think he had a tailplane stall. Does that excuse ignoring stall warning devices without good cause? Because my reading of what has been presented so far seems to indicate that that was the cause of the accident. It doesn't make me any better of a pilot to say this; I don't get any jollies pointing out where someone else screwed up. But the families of those who were killed deserve the truth, and if that means that the media get involved, so be it.

 

[FlyBoyd]

Excellent article though, finally bringing light to the shit wages they pay at the regionals. Oh, you can't live off $18,000 a year while trying to pay off $100,000 in loans for flight training and living in an area with a high cost of living?

Check out this sight (and forum). It contains the latest payscales for most companies. Good info for the uniformed. FWIW, a first year American Eagle FO makes ~ $22K...an 18 year Captain makes ~ $88K. Wages will continue to decrease as the line is out the door and many people in the line will work for almost nothing in an attempt to "live the dream."

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines.html

 

[Krafty1]

There were news articles discussing the possibility of a tailplane stall shortly after the accident, and then that the NTSB ruled this out as a causal factor.

Links citing tailplane icing as a causal factor:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/02/how-does-ice-br/
http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/02/one_more_possibility_in_the_bu.php

Link showing that this theory is beginning to be cast in doubt:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wa...ns/2009/03/black_box_provides_new_theory.html

Maybe the PIC did think he had a tailplane stall. Does that excuse ignoring stall warning devices without good cause? Because my reading of what has been presented so far seems to indicate that that was the cause of the accident. It doesn't make me any better of a pilot to say this; I don't get any jollies pointing out where someone else screwed up. But the families of those who were killed deserve the truth, and if that means that the media get involved, so be it.

Absolutely they deserve the truth, I'm glad some news agency mentioned the possibility. I tried to find the particular article I was referring to but could not. Anyhow I suppose its all a moot point as the facts are there. This NY Times article though really does give me hope, the NTSB and FAA seem to be willingly to at least address some very real problems in the industry at the regional level. Now I guess we will have to wait and find out what they plan to do about it...

 

[AJTranny]

Does anyone with company experience think technology in the cockpit is helping people get into the regional-carrier world that might otherwise be unprepared/unqualified?

 

[Makk85]

A good friend of mine, who is a captain on a Hawker, was telling horror stories the other night about how a lot of companies will now force nearly anybody through the training process regardless of how much they suck. Some companies figure if they have invested money in someones training already that it is more cost effective to push them through rather than give them the boot and start fresh with someone new. He flies with an FO now that has been with the company for 4 months and still struggles to set the heading and altitude bugs, not to mention countless other things. As a bonus the FO sounds exactly like the old man from Family Guy.

 

[HAL Pilot]

IF the aircraft was experiencing a tail plane icing stall, then raising the flaps and pulling back on the yoke would have been the correct response.

BUT from the transcript, the crew never discussed tail plane icing and when the stall happened, there was no CRM at all. Neither announced any kind of stall or said anything about the stick shaker, and the FO raised the flaps without being directed to.

Further, the NTSB has already concluded the icing on the plane was not the cause of the accident. There was also an almost 50 knot decrease in airspeed in a very small time frame that went unnoticed by both pilots. I don't know if the Q400 has auto-throttles or manual, etc. But this airspeed lose is significant and I believe if they determine why it happened, they will have the root cause of the accident (whether it was mechanical or pilot error).

And yes, regional pilot hiring minimums/qualifications and pay sucks. That has been discussed here numerous times. It won't change until all the airline pilot wanna-bes get over their "shiny jet syndrome" and demand better compensation.