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Nukes for hamburger meat....

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
After reading the WSJ op-ed piece a bit more throughly he has got a few things wrong and makes some assumptions that are not entirely correct. That includes claiming that MIRV's would become an issue, that would be almost certainly covered in the new treaty. Another is taking at face value what the Russian are claiming about launchers, they are notoriously loose with the truth when it comes to their claims about weapons. The claim about tactical nukes is a bit suspicious too, I am not even certain the vast majority of those are even viable anymore if there really is that many.

Mr Payne is not a disinterested party in this either, he is a major advocate for the expansion of our nuclear capabilities, which is probably unnecessary in today's security environment. Leave the Cold War were it belongs, in the past.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Who gets the most out of this, especially considering recent actions? How will this be viewed by other nations? Seems pretty clear that Russia comes out ahead.

How, and by whom? We will still posses a nuclear force capable of ending our enemies several times over, we don't need to do it 20 times over vice 5, what is the point?

Again, this is just continuing the trend begun and then continued by Presidents Nixon, Bush I and the great late Reagan. What is so different now? What has changed?
 

yodaears

Member
pilot
I've got to chime in here. I'm not a big Obama supporter but I will tell you that reducing the number of Nukes in world is something that I have a hard time arguing against. Can anyone seriously imagine a conflict where you would personally consider the use of strategic nuclear weapons as a viable option? Seriously think about the global consequences of such action. What I am a huge supporter of is a viable defensive system, much like the one we are currently working on (although I acknowledge that it will never be garanteed perfect). If such a system were to come into being I would advocate the abolision of our nuclear weapons all together. The main problem with nuclear arms, and WMDs in general, is that people tend to neglect the fact that they completely take the human and ethical considerations out of warfare. Such warfare, IMHO, is unacceptable. There, I said it. Now let me have it if you must.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Decreasing the stocks of nukes is all fine and good, but dammit, at least get something from the bastards for it...
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
How, and by whom? We will still posses a nuclear force capable of ending our enemies several times over, we don't need to do it 20 times over vice 5, what is the point?

The flip side of that coin is: If we can do it 5 is it really that offensive / terrible / a problem for international relations if we can do it 20?

In other words why does Russia care so much about the fact that we have thousands of warheads when 100 would probably do just as much damage? They arent going to get us to scale back to 50 warheads, so who cares?
 

exhelodrvr

Well-Known Member
pilot
How, and by whom? We will still posses a nuclear force capable of ending our enemies several times over, we don't need to do it 20 times over vice 5, what is the point?

Again, this is just continuing the trend begun and then continued by Presidents Nixon, Bush I and the great late Reagan. What is so different now? What has changed?

Nixon - was trying to bring the world back from close to the brink
Bush I - the USSR had just ended; laying the groundwork for a relationship with (what was hoped to be) a "new" Russia
Reagan - negotiating from a position of strength

What has changed now? Russia is regressing significantly in its democracy, and is behaving more like the USSR of the late 50's - late 60's period. That doesn't mean don't negotiate, but get some behavioral change from them in exchange for what we give up.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Look I've missed a bunch of posts since yesterday, but I'm sure a quick search would yield results that we too are facing increasing costs in maintaining old nukes and planned on either "retiring" (however you do that with a nuke) or buying new ones to maintain a current stockpile. Plus, how many of those Air Force Missile Silos in the desert are or can realistically used for conventional crossover? Even if they can, can we practically see ourselves using them? I'm just saying, less nukes is a good thing; we still have more than enough of them to destroy the world several times over.
 

Jynx

*Placeholder*
Contributor
@ Phill_hacker,

Please do, I'd be interested to read it if it's for public consumption.
 

exhelodrvr

Well-Known Member
pilot
Pill_Hacker said:
FWIW(probably very little), one of my recent professors and now close friends worked for the CIA at the Russia desk for almost 10 years. She also specialized in WMD and nuclear proliferation. It is her feeling that whatever efforts we make are just gestures on an eventual and inevitable path to being allies. It doesn't take much mental effort to see the relatively weak Russia teaming up with the US in an effort to offset the rapidly expanding presence and power of China. She has a big research paper published on it somewhere. I will see if I can find it.

I think that China and Russia individually taking advantage of a weaker United States, or a United States which acts weak, is much more likely.
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
Well, it looks like the American public is no longer as willing to buy what is being sold by our Commander In Chief. Hey, at least the Russians and Iranians like him.

obama_index_july_9_2009.jpg
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
Well, it looks like the American public is no longer as willing to buy what is being sold by our Commander In Chief. Hey, at least the Russians and Iranians like him.

obama_index_july_9_2009.jpg
All right Bevo, 'fess up. How many times did you go online to www.rasmussen.com to vote "Disapprove"?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think many of you have the wrong impression of what the proposed mew START treaty really is. It is a treaty that is almost solely focused on strategic nuclear weapons, the ones that could end up on each others soil in just minutes. There might be a little bit of linkage between that goal and some other ancillary things, but that is the primary focus of these negotitations. Adding to the negotiations tactical nukes or any other contentious issues would likely scuttle the agreement, which it seems both the original commentators posted wouldn't mind see happen. The Russians are attempting to link some missile defense to the agreement but that may or may not happen.

Antoher important thing to keep in mind is that the agreement is not even done yet, we have just signaled our intent to make one. We haven't 'given up' anything yet. Mr Peters also makes it clear he has a basic misunderstanding of the agreement, claiming that we may be forced to give up conventional forces. The only conventional forces that we might 'give up' would be aome of our bombers, but I doubt that any meaningful cuts there would be made since the cuts could easily be made to the nuke capable weapons the bombers carry, not the bombers themselves. To assume tht the Russians will be able to 'cut us down to Russia's size' conventionally is patently absurd and shows blatant ignorance about Russian capabilities.

The START treaty is not just about the cuts in strategic weapons, it has pretty strong verification and compliance measures in place to ensure that both sides follow the agreement. It gives us an enormous amount of information that would be much more difficult to come by if the START runs out. This includes test notification of the when and where of all strategic weapons tests, unecrypted telemetry from the tests, inspection of facilities, launch systems and launchers and verification of the actual reductions in weapons and launchers. All of this not only drastically decreases the distrust on both sides but also yields a bonanza of information that would otherwise, at best, be much more difficult to obtain to at worst, be almost impossible to get. And don't say that the Russians don't follow the current agreement, because you wouldn't know what you are talking about. I won't pretend there aren't the occasional violations, but overall the treaty is very well adhered to by both sides. A 95% solution is better than a 20% one.

What has changed now? Russia is regressing significantly in its democracy, and is behaving more like the USSR of the late 50's - late 60's period. That doesn't mean don't negotiate, but get some behavioral change from them in exchange for what we give up.

Russia of the 50's? We are talking about the same corrupt, fragile and weak Russia of today? And behavioral change? Exactly what kind? If you are referring to the little war they had with Georgia last year then any attempt at getting them to change their attiude towards that will likely fail, badly. That type of linkage never occured in the past even when Reagan was negotiatiing from his supposed position of strength.

I think that China and Russia individually taking advantage of a weaker United States, or a United States which acts weak, is much more likely.

That is supposed to be a joke, right? Russia and China might be playing nice but they are still only allies of convenience, not of mutual trust. They are still much greater strategic rivals then they are friends and it is doubtful they will work together on strategic nukes anytime soon, especially when China has never done that. And don't forget, both countries are facing demographic time bombs that could cripple their countries in 30-50 years. If anyone will be weaker, it will be those two.

Well, it looks like the American public is no longer as willing to buy what is being sold by our Commander In Chief. Hey, at least the Russians and Iranians like him.

The Iranians and Russians like him? Where do you get that? Of course that is just one poll, here are some others.
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
All right Bevo, 'fess up. How many times did you go online to www.rasmussen.com to vote "Disapprove"?

None. That picture was actually posted on a Longhorn Football web site that I am a member of. It becomes a nightmare of political garbage in the off season. September 5th can't get here soon enough.
 
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