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NYT Opinion piece on DOD budget cutting

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
Total sea dominance eh? Ya, there's no piracy in the Gulf of Aden
The problem is political, not military. If we were "weapons-free", the problem would be over in hours, as would most shipping through that region. The problem is deeper than manning enough ships to cover every inch of ocean continuously. International shipping is important, but not worth that much money.

As a JO it's interesting to read OP-ED pieces like this. I've always viewed the NYT as a mouthpiece for a side of the American public that I've never been able to identify with: The liberal, leftist side.

My question for the ladies and gentlemen of the forum is this: How strong an indicator is this OP-ED of the attitude of the new administration? Can we younger and mid-grade officers expect to be RIF'd or find ourselves lacking (even more so than today) new weapons to fight new potential enemies (China, Russia, etc?)

They echo most of the Center for American Progress (a progressive think thank, if the name didn't give it away)'s prescriptions:
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/12/military_priorities.html
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
We could cut back on GS jobs and civilian contractors for a start.

It is simple to say that but harder to do, just like our military budget. Plus, with the natural attrition of the boomers coming up there is actually going to be a great need for GS's soon, great opportunities for vets!

The biggest cuts to come the earliest I bet will come to contractors, much easier to get rid of them than anything else and there are an awful lot of them nowadays. Lets just hope they are smart about it!
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
My question for the ladies and gentlemen of the forum is this: How strong an indicator is this OP-ED of the attitude of the new administration? Can we younger and mid-grade officers expect to be RIF'd or find ourselves lacking (even more so than today) new weapons to fight new potential enemies (China, Russia, etc?)

The media is not so wedded to the political establishment of the left as many here would seem to believe, but there might be some hints in there of cuts to come. Some are just so obvious it is not even funny, any idiot with a basic knowledge of defense news could figure them out.

As for less weapons than we have today to fight the commies, there are going to be less no matter who is in power. The toys are just that much more expensive nowadays. People might pine for the days of Reagan but we simply cannot afford that anymore, unless you want the dollar to become worthless and the deficit to balloon even more. There are some very hard choices coming, as they should be, and some 'big ticket' programs are likely to be cut. But I doubt the pain will be as bad as many people think, though it might seem worse to some. The services have done themselves no favors by horribly mismanaging some programs that should have delivered a long time ago, and each service is guilty of it.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
The toys are just that much more expensive nowadays.
There was an AF slide on acquisition costs I saw some months ago that noted that they've been on a fairly consistent exponentially increasing line wrt final per-unit cost of aircraft. The debacles with DDG-1000, LCS 2, Comanche, FCS, V-22 and EFV show that it's not just limited to one branch either. Something has to be done about acquisition, lest we fight the next war with 2 ships, a helo and a platoon of Marines that swam ashore.
 

SkywardET

Contrarian
That said, I can see the logic to the editorial's general point: the US does not have an infinite amount of funding to spend on the military and it should channel resources toward the type low level conflicts which will likely dominate the 21st century. It's not just a call to reduce spending but to redirect it.
What are you talking about? We have an unlimited supply of money! It literally grows on trees. All it needs is a little inking and cutting and so forth. You can't go from 2.7 Trillion in revenue to 3.7 Trillion in spending without an unlimited supply of money, right?
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
^----- I really don't know that much about the submarine forces of our foes (potential and actual), but the bit about keeping the submarine force in production just to avoid closing the 'yards seems rather short sighted.

Without going into specifics, aren't there quite a bit of 'unfriendly' submarines patrolling around out there? I mean I know even Iran has submarines...
No, they're mosty spot on about this. The fact is, though, you can't halt production and then one day say "ok, let's make more subs now" if it ever becomes needed.

The role of the submarine in the post-Cold War era has been scrutinized a lot, particularly once we found out that the ruskies could only match our technology on paper and we continue to achieve air-dominance.

There are subs out there that can take on even our Seawolves (the type 212 U-boat, for one). The caveat is they have limited range and time at sea, and that's why we hold onto nuclear propulsion.

Nevertheless, the average optempo of fast attack submarines is something like 70%, so clearly we're putting them to use.

As far as trimming the Navy/Air Force and expanding ground forces: the AF has the largest budget of all four branches (topping the Navy by about 1%, and the Navy's budget includes the USMC budget). Our Navy is larger than the next 13 countries combined. This is clearly excessive, especially when we are engaged in small-scale operations that cannot be won with jets and cruise missiles. Well, they can, at the expense of annihilating the civilian population with the bad guys. It would be great to maintain such an overwhelming advantage, but we don't have an infinite budget to do so.

The thing that gets me is that our budget is in the TRILLIONS. I think that, adding everything up, we are talking about saving $50-100 billion. That amounts to something between 2-8% of the budget. Significant, but not really going to fix the problem.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Many people, my self included, still wonder about the worth of the V-22. For what it does at its total cost, I certainly don't think so.
I've heard the arguments before, and I'm sure we'll hear them in the future - but at this point in the game (when there are 5 or more squadrons in New River) the point is kind of moot. Why? 1. The Marine Corps likes the flexibility a ramp provides for its medium lift assets - so no H-60. 2. Do you really think Sikorsky will just paint an S-92 grey and give it to us cheap? If you do, I've got a bridge to sell you.

So, if they canx the V-22 now - it'll be YEARS before they start replacing the Phrogs out west, and by years I mean that with the current schedule, they'll have the Phrogs replaced with V-22s long before they'll get IOC of an S-92. Yes, its expensive - but I'd be willing to bet that the cost to canx it now and find a new platform to replace the Phrog before the Phrog runs out of service life would be more.

This is clearly excessive, especially when we are engaged in small-scale operations that cannot be won with jets and cruise missiles. Well, they can, at the expense of annihilating the civilian population with the bad guys.
Stick with submarines, because you clearly are talking out of your ass. Last I checked, there are these things called "Precision Guided Munitions" that come off of jets, and that they've been using in small-scale operations for quite some time. So you're not exactly going to annihilate the civilian population - after all, I'm pretty sure we're not doing that now.
 

jollygreen07

Professional (?) Flight Instructor
pilot
Contributor
Agreed, although I'll stick with the first hand accounts from my fellow forward air controllers who are saying "cleared hot."

I agree wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately their very qualified opinion isn't what the world listens to. If Al-Jazeera used Marine FACs as news commentators their ratings wouldn't be nearly as good.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Stick with submarines, because you clearly are talking out of your ass. Last I checked, there are these things called "Precision Guided Munitions" that come off of jets, and that they've been using in small-scale operations for quite some time. So you're not exactly going to annihilate the civilian population - after all, I'm pretty sure we're not doing that now.
Yes, we have precision guided missiles, but it's still not going to win wars by themselves.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The thing that gets me is that our budget is in the TRILLIONS. I think that, adding everything up, we are talking about saving $50-100 billion. That amounts to something between 2-8% of the budget. Significant, but not really going to fix the problem.

Can you be more specific? Like, who is "we". US of A, DoD, Navy? If OSD, the Annual Budget is not in the trillions. If you're taking about over multiple years, then it does add up though.

FY09 TOA in $1B
USA 138.969
USN 149.295
USAF 143.845
DOD 200
Total 516.804

So Navy got $149 Billion (and some change in FY09) out of DOD's $516.8 Billion
 
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