OCS Contract with a AFROTC DQ?

[Mobious6]

Hello all,

Some background, I am 20 years old halfway through my Aviation Flight Tech degree at Eastern Michigan U. I have my private pilot cert with an instrument rating, high performance, and complex endorsements. I currently have around 225 hrs of flight time. When I finish my degree in spring of 2015 I should have my commercial, multi-engine, and CFI with around 350-400 hours. I had a 2.6 GPA through high school and a 3.2 in college. At some point in middle school my parents took me to a doctor to see if I was mentally capable because I was not doing any of my homework for years. I assume I took an IQ test and I know that I did well on that but my doctor still recommended that I be put on Ritalin. My Father refused that I take the drugs and I never did but I do not know if that doc officially diagnosed me with ADD or ADHD. From their on out I was given the option to have special ed throughout school. I gathered through this that I did not need this help but it further enabled me to be even more lazy throughout school. I know now that this was my mistake. Before my senior year I realized that this special ed status could harm my chances of being accepted into college and talked my parents and teachers into getting me out of the help programs. I got accepted into EMU and WMU and enrolled in AFROTC the first semester. At the end of the first semester we all filled out DoDMERB physicals and wanting to be a good cadet that follows the honor code I told them that I had had a history of "learning disabilitys" thinking that it would not be a big deal with how much better I was doing in college with no support (I have since been told my many veterans that this was a great mistake).

I was in AFROTC for one and a half years at Det. 390 U of Michigan. I was disqualified for a "History of academic skills disorder" by Dept of Def Medical Examination Review Board. The DQ went on to say that I may not be able to be worldwide deployable or be trained in complex tasks, this after I had flown as pilot in command from KYIP Willow Run Airport all the way to KEYW Key West International for a week long training trip through my University. My general physician is a Mich. ANG LtCol who was the Fmr. Chief Flight Surgon for all of Rammstein AB, Germany. However he at one point in his career used a Congressional waiver to help an enlisted Airman stay in the AF. I learn after the fact that this may have blacklisted him for promotion and thus may be the reason he is currently in the Guard. Following his lead I go and pay close to 1k for a PHD to give me an IQ test and text for any mental disability. The results come back that I have an IQ of 141 and no example of any disability. I send this in with his letter of recommendation to DoDMERB and am still rejected. I then send in another waiver request with a signed letter from my special ed teacher from highschool and a few other normal teachers stating that I never displayed any disability and that I typically never took advantage of the help offered to me. This is also denied. I then send an even bigger packet with LOR's from every single college professor I have had and my CFI, and on of my Cadre at the Det. saying that I am a outstanding student and have demonstrated high levels of mental aptitude to all of them. I am still denied. My Cadre gets me the email for the deputy director of DoDMERB Larry Mullen. After a few emails back and fourth explaining the situation to him he sends me a email in red letters and yellow background and I paraphrase here "This is not a gray area. Get the !@#$ out of the AF!"

Thoughts on that, getting into Navy OCS? Please don't try to tell me to give up. I have overcome tons of naysayers in my life trying to tell me that I can't do this or that and I will chase my dream of being a military pilot until my legs fall off. Thank you.

 

[BackOrdered]

I'm no Doc, but why haven't you consulted a "no kidding" practicing medical provider for an "actual" assessment? From what you are saying and what I can follow, you have done everything but take the most obvious route. Yes, you went to your general physician, but why did you then seek an IQ test from an Academic PhD who I assume doesn't have a medical license? Your physician should have referred you to a mental health specialist, not an Academic who just became 1k richer. Also you need to take some accountability and find out if you were officially diagnosed in the first place. Why at this stage you don't seem to know is puzzling.

As far as veterans saying that telling the AFROTC you have a history of learning disabilities is a mistake, they are correct in the fact that unless you hear or read a diagnosis from a "no kidding" Doc, you can't call anything a history. Being seen and having a history are two different things. I have knee pains every now and again (getting old), but I don't go and tell people I have a history of knee problems, only my doctors can do that. They have not. By all means report problems with your health, but only repeat what is on paper. Lesson learned?

 

[Mobious6]

I did not realize that there was a difference between a PhD and an MD for these purposes. I know I had the recommendation for military service from my doc and I assumed that counted as a pro medical opinion. I honestly have no idea when I was first tested. The person who did it is out of business and we don't have it in our records because a old doc who used to be our general doc randomly retired and vanished off the face of the earth taking my whole families records with him. Trust me, I wish I could have found those records because they may have helped my refute the AF even more. At the end of the day the only "records" the AF has of me having a problem is my DoDmerb physical where I stupidly said I had a history and the Individualized Education Plan from my high school saying how help was made available to me for three years. So yeah, lesson learned the extremely hard way.

 

[BackOrdered]

I did not realize that there was a difference between a PhD and an MD for these purposes. I know I had the recommendation for military service from my doc and I assumed that counted as a pro medical opinion. I honestly have no idea when I was first tested. The person who did it is out of business and we don't have it in our records because a old doc who used to be our general doc randomly retired and vanished off the face of the earth taking my whole families records with him. Trust me, I wish I could have found those records because they may have helped my refute the AF even more. At the end of the day the only "records" the AF has of me having a problem is my DoDmerb physical where I stupidly said I had a history and the Individualized Education Plan from my high school saying how help was made available to me for three years. So yeah, lesson learned the extremely hard way.

One can have a PhD in Philosophy and yes that rates the title of "Doctor of Philosophy", but that doesn't make them medically licensed or allow them to write a Rx. They just have an esteemed opinion in their field and can teach it. My alarm bell for me was that you paid 1k for that opinion, this should be covered under your health insurance somehow. 1k out of pocket is absurd.

WAAAY too many questions that need answering about your initial diagnosis, or whether it even was one in the first place. So yes, writing that down without all the fact was an error. My advice is to get your Physician to refer you to a "trained licensed specialist." Talk to an Officer Recruiter who can point you to what that specialist needs to do to get you cleared. You will have to do all the leg work, but it is the best place to start.

 

[Mobious6]

That makes sense. I think I told them because I knew for a fact that the IEP stuff at least was real and on file and I did not want them to find that at some point and be able to say "Why did you lie to us about this? We asked you if you ever had mental problems." you know what I mean?

It is encouraging to see suggestions about trying to fix this still, I know there is always a chance for everything but it helps moral when its more than a 1% chance.

 

[EODDave]

Apply for the Navy. Fill out the paperwork. And do not give out any information that is not specifically asked for on the paperwork. From my experience, AF and Navy systems do not talk to each other. If you know that you do not have a medical issue, then don't offer up extra information that is not needed. I'm not telling you to lie, cheat or steal, but sometimes our system is broke. A good friend of mine when he was young got kicked in the head by a horse and was out cold for a few minutes. When asked if he had ever been knocked unconscious, etc.. He replied, "not that I recall". He is probably one of the best pilots I know. Either way, don't offer up information that may or may not be exactly precise. If you have a doctor telling you that you are perfectly fine and some doctor in the past was mistaken, then that would be my answer. Period. Dot.

 

[Mobious6]

I did look into the Marine Platoon Leader Program (PLC) a few months ago and they also pulled my DoDMERB DQ and I was not allowed to join that. I know that the program is not the USMC proper really with how they check their midshipmen medically (cause they still use DoDMERB) but they are still in Dept. of the Navy.

 

[EODDave]

Go talk to a Navy Officer recruiter and get the story from the horses mouth. You can tell them you were gung-ho on the AF paperwork but have since found out the ground truth. There are waivers, but you may have shot yourself in the foot being over zealous on the original paperwork. Hopefully, someone with a clue will look at the whole package instead of what one doc wrote years ago and all will work out well for you in the end.

 

[Mobious6]

My dad talked to a Navy OCS recruiter while I was trying to get a waiver for the AF and that recruiter said that he would not know until he could send in my packet for OCS and to do that I would have to be 6 months away from graduation. Is there any way around that? Does anyone know the specific reg that may DQ me in the Navy if they care?

 

[BackOrdered]

My dad talked to a Navy OCS recruiter while I was trying to get a waiver for the AF and that recruiter said that he would not know until he could send in my packet for OCS and to do that I would have to be 6 months away from graduation. Is there any way around that? Does anyone know the specific reg that may DQ me in the Navy if they care?

My dad talked to a Navy OCS recruiter while I was trying to get a waiver for the AF and that recruiter said that he would not know until he could send in my packet for OCS and to do that I would have to be 6 months away from graduation. Is there any way around that? Does anyone know the specific reg that may DQ me in the Navy if they care?

 

[Swanee]

That makes sense. I think I told them because I knew for a fact that the IEP stuff at least was real and on file and I did not want them to find that at some point and be able to say "Why did you lie to us about this? We asked you if you ever had mental problems." you know what I mean?

It is encouraging to see suggestions about trying to fix this still, I know there is always a chance for everything but it helps moral when its more than a 1% chance.

If you have had an IEP then you have been diagnosed by an MD with some type of a learning disability. You even said he prescribed/recommended Ritalin. Whether you elected to take drugs to treat it or not is another thing, but you have been diagnosed. Look up the waiver guide, and figure out if you are waiverable or not. And find out more about your IEP.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Apply for the Navy. Fill out the paperwork. And do not give out any information that is not specifically asked for on the paperwork. From my experience, AF and Navy systems do not talk to each other. If you know that you do not have a medical issue, then don't offer up extra information that is not needed. I'm not telling you to lie, cheat or steal, but sometimes our system is broke. A good friend of mine when he was young got kicked in the head by a horse and was out cold for a few minutes. When asked if he had ever been knocked unconscious, etc.. He replied, "not that I recall". He is probably one of the best pilots I know. Either way, don't offer up information that may or may not be exactly precise. If you have a doctor telling you that you are perfectly fine and some doctor in the past was mistaken, then that would be my answer. Period. Dot.

They will find out, there is a spot on the medical forms that says "have you ever been rejected for military service for any reason" hopefully the USN will have common sense and look at this with a fresh set of eyes.

 

[LFCFan]

I'm no Doc, but why haven't you consulted a "no kidding" practicing medical provider for an "actual" assessment? From what you are saying and what I can follow, you have done everything but take the most obvious route. Yes, you went to your general physician, but why did you then seek an IQ test from an Academic PhD who I assume doesn't have a medical license?

One can have a PhD in Philosophy and yes that rates the title of "Doctor of Philosophy", but that doesn't make them medically licensed or allow them to write a Rx.
*snip*
WAAAY too many questions that need answering about your initial diagnosis, or whether it even was one in the first place. So yes, writing that down without all the fact was an error. My advice is to get your Physician to refer you to a "trained licensed specialist." Talk to an Officer Recruiter who can point you to what that specialist needs to do to get you cleared. You will have to do all the leg work, but it is the best place to start.

Bad gouge. Clinical psychologists have PhDs or PsyDs, and have a totally different license from an MD. MDs do not do formal testing, and would just send you to a Ph.D. A PhD in academic/experimental psych is a professor who does non-clinical research, which is what you think OP went and saw.

life story and then some

Anyway, OP, you actually did the right thing as far as trying to disprove that you had any problems. You never took any meds, which is good, but you correctly concluded that the "special ed" status is probably what killed you, and got that lovely reply from the DODMERB folks. It might be a good idea for you to wait until AFTER college when you have a sustained record of top academic performance to make a solid case for Navy OCS. Getting past MEPS won't be too bad (I know someone with a much worse background who made it through painlessly), but the flight physical will probably be a problem.

 

[Mobious6]

That's basically what I was thinking of doing now. When I graduate I will have all my certifications with good grades and the pilot shortage should finally be here. Even if it takes a few more years I could in theory work as a CFI at my school biding my time for the shortage to happen/get worse. I got DQ'ed almost a year ago now and I have basically been waiting for my packet to cool down if you will. If the DoD changes their rules to get more pilots I could be Scott free. If not I need to find a good way to get a waiver using a REAL Doc.

 

[jcj]

Bad gouge. Clinical psychologists have PhDs or PsyDs, and have a totally different license from an MD. MDs do not do formal testing, and would just send you to a Ph.D. A PhD in academic/experimental psych is a professor who does non-clinical research, which is what you think OP went and saw.

Anyway, OP, you actually did the right thing as far as trying to disprove that you had any problems. You never took any meds, which is good, but you correctly concluded that the "special ed" status is probably what killed you, and got that lovely reply from the DODMERB folks. It might be a good idea for you to wait until AFTER college when you have a sustained record of top academic performance to make a solid case for Navy OCS. Getting past MEPS won't be too bad (I know someone with a much worse background who made it through painlessly), but the flight physical will probably be a problem.

The other degree you may see on someone who does this type of practice is an EdD. As LFCFan points out, it's about the professional qualifications and licensure of whoever does the testing, not necessarily which of the relevant doctoral degrees they have (PhD, PsyD, EdD) as long as they have one. The "Philosophy" in the PhD is a traditional indication of the mastery of knowledge at the doctoral level, not necessary in the field of Philosophy. One can become a PhD in philosophy, mathematics, physics, psychology, English, engineering, music or whatever (my wife is finishing her PhD in nursing).

The other thing is this - it looks like the core problem is that you were given a diagnosis of "learning disability" by your original civilian physician , and since you were honest and reported it you were DQ'd and the diagnosis is now in your DoDMERB records. Likely any other military medical activity evaluating you for commissioning will have access to what's already in your DoDMERB data.

You have two general options (others on the board are better qualified to advise re: the details of how to pursue these options):

1. Seek a waiver for the diagnosis of learning disability - Here is the link to the NAMI waiver guide: http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/arwg/Pages/AeromedicalReferenceandWaiverGuide.aspx
The relevant information is in the psychiatry section on page 12. It looks like a waiver is possible in the Navy, although the answer you're getting from AFROTC doesn't seem very promising.

2. Convince the Navy that the original diagnosis was in error. This may be a more difficult road. As you mentioned, it will help if you can get to your original records or can get to the physician who made the original diagnosis. I know you mentioned that you can't find him, but you might have some luck contacting the state medical board or the state medical society of whatever state you were in - given your age it wasn't really that long ago in medical record terms, and state medical boards and state medical societies both often have programs that help patients find their medical records or contact physicians when physicians go out of practice.

If there's any good news about this it's that all of us in the medical world are well aware that learning disabilities, ADD and ADHD have been overdiagnosed and overtreated for some years, and there are likely a lot of patients who have been inappropriately diagnosed and (usually) treated. So while it's a real pain in the ass to be in your position, your situation is common enough that we've all seen it before & know that it's likely a real problem, not someone just playing games with us.

Good luck