Practice shots yes. Heard a few funny stories about them going crazy off the rails.
-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
Old Missiles
- Thread starter jmcquate
- Start date
Practice shots yes. Heard a few funny stories about them going crazy off the rails.
I heard a story about a -9M shoot with a missile losing its shit coming off the rail, and going after -2...
How about my favorite... AGM-12C "Bullpup", radio-controlled by Pilot - 2,ooo#/1,000# warhead beast. Fired 21 of these in combat, DEADLY accurate (although they barely scorched the famed "Dragon's Jaw" bridge at Thanh Hoa)! Now a big badboy 'Pup mailbox ought to give home invaders second thoughts!
*BzB preflightihg Bullpup-C on CVA-64, 10/06/67
View attachment 11846View attachment 11848View attachment 11847
BzB
Sounds like a bigger/badder version of the Walleye II. I remember viewing tapes brought back by guys from VN. If there happened to be a target of opportunity on the bridge, it got a slow moving surprise. As I recall, they were nuke capable.
BZ, BzB! Nice work! However, I am now insanely jealous. Our F-4Bs had a "Bullpup" panel, but it was not operational.How about my favorite... AGM-12C "Bullpup", radio-controlled by Pilot - 2,ooo#/1,000# warhead beast. Fired 21 of these in combat, DEADLY accurate (although they barely scorched the famed "Dragon's Jaw" bridge at Thanh Hoa)! Now a big badboy 'Pup mailbox ought to give home invaders second thoughts!
*BzB preflightihg Bullpup-C on CVA-64, 10/06/67
View attachment 11848
BzB
Never fired one.But what's worse, after reading your DFC citation is that I once dropped a span of the Dong Song Bypass bridge as a section lead. In fact it had been targeted later that day for an Alpha Strike off the Connie. Unfortunately, I didn't get squat for any award!
Of course being too busy/lazy to do the write-up for a medal might have had something to do with it too.
I would imagine that happens to most old missiles that aren't sold or recycled.
Hah, hell of an expensive 'loveseat'....back in their heyday (mid-late '60s), the "BabyPup" AGM-12B went for $35K per ea., "BigBro" -12C at $120K ea. (equiv. to ~$o.25M ea. in today's $$$)!
BzB
That's unfortunate, I recall that you once mentioned that your CAG-5, was very chintzy re. combat awards. The fine line between loose & tight awards criteria is hard to quantify. COs/CAGs are human & have their personal take on qual. for combat awards. Command awards interpretations criteria overly tight, is unfair to that command...OTOH, criteria too loose, is unfair to other same type commands. Finding that 'happy middle ground' is a crap shoot at best. I've found the awards subject to be a very sensitive and emotional subject here on AW, & elsewhere, so I'll leave further discussion of this, for another time/place.
Don't know 'bout that, the only time I ever heard of a Pilot politicing for, or attempting to write up their own awards, were laughed out the door. Must be a newer thing, like roughing up/submitting your own FITREP (which I was unfamiliar with, but was just coming into vogue when I retired).Of course being too busy/lazy to do the write-up for a medal might have had something to do with it too.
*CatMan, you might want to check post on Main Forum - OCS v WOFT? thread; pg. 2 of 3 - post #47, last Para. re. Pfantum bombing in NVN.
BzB
Must be a newer thing, like roughing up/submitting your own FITREP (which I was unfamiliar with, but was just coming into vogue when I retired).
Not sure to what extent you are talking about here, but that is the norm in my community (guessing others as well) now. Obviously as a JO the DH and front office will chop it but you do make the initial draft.
It wasn't politicing, although a few did sometimes. If it was only a two-plane section, the flight lead was supposed to initiate and write up the 1st draft of a proposed citation himself and then pass it on to AI for a chop among others within our airwing/squadron. An Alpha Strike was different of course, but I think the squadron element lead within an A-strike did the same.Don't know 'bout that, the only time I ever heard of a Pilot politicing for, or attempting to write up their own awards, were laughed out the door. Must be a newer thing, like roughing up/submitting your own FITREP (which I was unfamiliar with, but was just coming into vogue when I retired).
But most write-ups got shot down. Awards were rare in our airwing. Thus people stopped bothering to even write them up, figuring it was just a waste of time unless it was something really extraordinary and widely recognized as such.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
The write your own FITREP was the norm across all communities (HSL, VT, VAW) I was in from 2001-2012.
I always thought it was a cop out for COs who didn't know their JOs.. I can see the CO not knowing every JO on a CV.. But when you have 20 aircrew max, including the XO and hinges...
I know the argument is the CO's time is far more valuable, but what is really more valuable, selecting the future leaders, or having a weekly VTC with the Type Wing Commodore, three times a week?
In VRC/VQ/HSL/VP, I can see the CO/XO asking OICs for input.. But in my VAW squadron, I interacted with the CO almost daily.
I always thought it was a cop out for COs who didn't know their JOs.. I can see the CO not knowing every JO on a CV.. But when you have 20 aircrew max, including the XO and hinges...
I know the argument is the CO's time is far more valuable, but what is really more valuable, selecting the future leaders, or having a weekly VTC with the Type Wing Commodore, three times a week?
In VRC/VQ/HSL/VP, I can see the CO/XO asking OICs for input.. But in my VAW squadron, I interacted with the CO almost daily.
It was... the major differences: Walleye was a glide (unpowered) weapon, smaller bang but deadly accurate when you had a high contrast aimpoint to lock onto (employed high-contrast lock on). Big advantage was once locked on, you could "shoot & scoot" (fire & forget), one great feature in a high threat area. A close friend of mine in VA-212 (one of only 2 Airpac Walleye Sqdns), told me it earned it's keep at the Hanoi power plant (which was struck continually over time, by both WE Sqdns). It had many windows on all sides of the huge plant, which offered perfect black/white contrast lock on from far out. Showed me video tape after tape gliding those babies right through a window. The only minor drawback there was BDA was scarce, as the major (deadly) damage was contained within & not visible by eye or RA-5C cameras. They knew they were successful when Hanoi's lights were not visible that night and longer...!
BullpupC had a much greater PUNCH, as it was a 1,000# warhead, liquid rocket powered up to mach 2.2, w/ only 2 sec. rocket motor burn. During that 2 sec., control was impossible due to poor visibility (rocket flame/smoke & all sorts of crap & corruption), and a no "G" restriction during 2 sec. rocket burn. At burnout, two red tracking flares ignite & the missile becomes a bright red dot controlled by a hand-size joy stick on the port console. The mini-stick is proportional control & works just like the A/C stick "up-down, left-right" & any combo in between.
Major drawback: High alt 10-12K' release- slow 300kt glide - wings absolutely level from release to impact (controlling to keep the red dot dead on aimpoint), No banking/jinking from release to impact. Most control inputs are UP due to gravity, Lor R for crosswinda & in between for the combo w/ swirling shifting winds. It's akin to aiming a gun/rifle... you can't anticipate impact, just keep red dot on aim point 'til BLAM..bye bye target!
P.S. The 'Big Pup' is a load. At one ton it cannot be launched from a missile rail like smaller A/C missiles. It must be carried & punched off like a MK-84 2k bomb. A 15' steel lanyard attached to the bomb rack, delays motor ignition until the Pup is well clear beneath, to prevent fire damage to BzB's ride home. The toughest part is seeing tracers whizzing by/flak puffs ahead & keeping wings level, working both "sticks", & longing to BREAKAWAY ...slam the throttle to overtemp... jinking & scooterin' to heaven, er 'feet wet'!
The end... BzB
What I told my JO's was that they needed to write their FitRep so they could learn how to do it.
Someday that JO will be a Department Head and will have to write/chop FitReps for the JO's and if it wasn't for writing my own FitRep, then I would never have done one before I was a DH.
Same as below, I was just unfamiliar with it. Fitreps were so sacred & secret in my time, you had to go to Bupers in person (in DC then) to reviw them . I only saw my file once during my career (X/C to ADW, a real eye-opener),
BzB
Wasn't knocking it at all, just wasn't familiar with it.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Not disagreeing Lumpy, but on the other hand I never got a good brief or was told what boards "Want to see" until I was a retread in Kingsville. I had 3 of 4 COs in HSL land who had been BUPERS guys as senior LTs/LCDRs, and not once do I remember an AOM/Training on "this is what is good, this is what is bad, and why".. Maybe a 4-5 minute part of the FITREP debrief if you were even there (for the non HSL familiar, your CO does not deploy, so if you are deployed during periodics, you get what your OIC fights for mostly)
CAPT Bulis, CAPT Finn and CDR Mundy (Bulis was VT-21 CO, but had been a 121 JO, Finn and Mundy were COs at 121 during my tour) all sat JOPA down, and described what is good, what is bad, and why. A bit of too little, too late for me, but they all did a great service for their JOs and DHs by actually going over the board feedbacks and such with the wardroom.
For the record, the only periodic #1 EP I had was written by a member of this board, and when I went to turn my self written FITREP in, he told me "it's taken care of". A prime example of a leader knowing his people, and knowing what the board needed to see. No fluff, no BS, because I had done enough to warrant a good FITREP with no filler.
CAPT Bulis, CAPT Finn and CDR Mundy (Bulis was VT-21 CO, but had been a 121 JO, Finn and Mundy were COs at 121 during my tour) all sat JOPA down, and described what is good, what is bad, and why. A bit of too little, too late for me, but they all did a great service for their JOs and DHs by actually going over the board feedbacks and such with the wardroom.
For the record, the only periodic #1 EP I had was written by a member of this board, and when I went to turn my self written FITREP in, he told me "it's taken care of". A prime example of a leader knowing his people, and knowing what the board needed to see. No fluff, no BS, because I had done enough to warrant a good FITREP with no filler.