P-3 vs. EP-3

[VarmintShooter]

In the final analysis, do what you feel like doing or fly what you feel like flying. If you don't like what you're doing, every day starts out bad and a few go good. But if you like what you're doing, well, just the opposite is likely to occur.

Problem is we have to select what we want before we ever get to fly it, so it's tough to pick the one that we will like flying. Info on the communities is pretty limited, with the one exception (that I've found) being this board. The people on this site have been very helpful so far ... thanks.

Edit: By the way, thanks for the community size perspective.

 

[USN99]

OK, if size doesn't really matter

OK, if you're in the advanced prop pipeline and your only two choices are P-3 or EP-3 (assumes that E-2C is not one of your choices), then simply ask yourself about the divergent mission profiles of P-3 vs EP-3.

P-3's manuever, not on every mission but they do alter altitude, airspeed; they make turns, they make rapid descents and climb-outs. Their mission is to hunt targets by passive sensors and/or active sensors. They hunt at visual range and beyond visual range. And, depending on the target, they put ordnance on it - usually at beyond visual range but they do put down the iron on the target.

The EP-3 mission profile is more aerodynamically limited, especially in altitude. From a pilots perspective, there isn't much manuevering and there never is the rush of running down on the deck, switching open bombay doors, and sending ordnance on the target. The EP-3 NFOs are getting their thrills by hunting through the electrons - very useful stuff and will bring back terrific intelligence of critical value. But you should ask yourself if you will enjoy using your pilot skills flying well within the aircrafts manuever and speed envelope in an EP-3.

Both EP and P-3s now conduct overland reconn missions. Their deployment cycles are similar and diverge greatly from the rest of naval air - tailhook land. So you've got to compare your preferences, likes and dislikes against the two mission profiles of the two communities your expected to choose from. You can set aside career-like considerations like size of communities and numbers of squadrons and potential for command selection. That's a bit far into the future.

Just take stock of what you feel like flying and go there.

 

[Eagle32]

Even though both platfroms are "feet dry" capable now, the P-3C is a better mission. Also, we operate out of more interesting places. I have been operating "in-country" for a month now, good flights. I don't think EP-3 guys know how to fly without autopilot anyway, that could be a good thing I guess.

 

[USN99]

Thinking Ahead

An officer getting their wings this year and gets P-3Cs, will very likely be flying the new MMA/Boeing 737 by the time they return for their Department Head (LCDR) tour. Concur fully the P-3 mission (which is really a Maritime Reconnaisance and Attack mission) is much more stimulating and challenging than the pure EP-3 Recon mission.

 

[Flash]

Whoa, I leave for a week and a couple VP bubbas think they can talk trash about my old homeys? Obviously Zab is not doing a good job of keeping you guys in line .

Concur fully the P-3 mission (which is really a Maritime Reconnaisance and Attack mission) is much more stimulating and challenging than the pure EP-3 Recon mission.

Recon and attack, pardon me while all those tailhook guys keep laughing. While the MMA will be a much more capable platform, don't get too deluded into thinking that you will be a strike platform. There is debate at high levels about what VP should be doing, I agree with the guys who say that ASW and the MARPAT mission should return to the forefront. The overland surveillance and strike missions can be handled by other platforms, no one else does ASW.

The P-3 Community is larger with more squadrons than EP-3. If you're interested in a career in naval aviation, you should consider flying a platform in a numerically larger community. A larger community means more flying slots, more department head jobs, more squadrons to command.

While it sounds like it might make sense, this is not panning out right now. The DH selection rate for VP right now is around 50% while it is around 80% or higher right now for VQ (EP-3). Why? VP is being cut while VQ is not. As a matter of fact VQ is slowly expanding. While it will settle down in a few years, right now it is not pretty. And the number of of JO's in proportion to DH's and CO's is about the same in both communities. As a matter of fact, VQ guys get an extra CO slot on the side (don't ask). The place where VQ hurts is Flag rank, they don't make it while there are several VP Admirals. If you really want to make rank, go VFA. Their DH and CO selection rates are far above any of the other big communities.

As for the flying slots, every single one of the pilots who asked for flying orders after they left my first squadron got some. Maybe not the ones they wanted but they got to fly, definitely not the same for VP (ever heard of a TSC?).

Also, we operate out of more interesting places.

Masirah, Al Jabar, Afghanistan and other interesting places, you can keep em! I would prefer to go to the Warbler in Bahrain and throw back a few cold ones while I try and hit on Stewardesses and tourists :icon_smil .

I don't think EP-3 guys know how to fly without autopilot anyway, that could be a good thing I guess.

In my first 2 years in the squadron, I did not fly in an operational bird that had a working autopilot, I do not kid you.

The EP-3 mission profile is more aerodynamically limited, especially in altitude. From a pilots perspective, there isn't much manuevering and there never is the rush of running down on the deck, switching open bombay doors, and sending ordnance on the target.

I do grant you that our pilots were bus drivers, but putting ordnance on target while the ground is rushing by, try Tacair. I never saw a P-3 on a low level in the Cascades.

But seriously, I love you P-3 guys. Stick to the ASW and MARPAT stuff though. Your good at it and one of the last 2 avaition communities that deal with that stuff. With the Chinese cranking out subs the way they do, you all will have plenty of work in the future.

 

[VarmintShooter]

Thanks everyone for the info, I guess that both jobs are satisfying in their own way. I guess I'll just wait to see what orders become available, then try to make up my mind.

 

[zab1001]

Flash, it's just one of those arguments I'm tired of. I don't wanna say i don't care, but I'm not gonna hype VP again, when the old posts are there. The one thing I will add is if you have any kind of tendency toward airsickness, Pilot or FO, go VQ.

(airsickness) + (200' agl) + (cad smoke in the tube) + (no autopilot) + (crappy air conditioner) + (yank n bank over sub) = miserbable, yacking aircrew

and Flash, I did chuckle at "Maritime Reconnaisance and Attack mission", if only, if only...

 

[Flash]

Flash, it's just one of those arguments I'm tired of. I don't wanna say i don't care, but I'm not gonna hype VP again, when the old posts are there. The one thing I will add is if you have any kind of tendency toward airsickness, Pilot or FO, go VQ.

(airsickness) + (200' agl) + (cad smoke in the tube) + (no autopilot) + (crappy air conditioner) + (yank n bank over sub) = miserbable, yacking aircrew

and Flash, I did chuckle at "Maritime Reconnaisance and Attack mission", if only, if only...

VQ is not mentioned too often on the site so I get excited every time I see it here. Something about it brings back fond memories of nodding off to the drone of 4 props while on another boring mission off the coast of some target country. That and I just couldn't let the Recon attack thing go.

As for the airsickness thing, I actually knew a few guys who got airsick on an EP-3, including a guy who NPQ'd from the flight program because he got airsick. He was one of our 'special' guys. Why they assigned him flight duties I have no clue.

I am sure sooner or later I will get sick of talking up VQ but I have not reached that point yet.

 

[bigmouth]

Do pilots really get sick a lot in P-3's? I figured I'd be saying goodbye to that when I said goodbye to pulling g's......

 

[zab1001]

As stated above. Heat, smoke, and maneuvering to stay on top of a contact, whether its a sub or a ship being investigated, can cause airsick prone individuals to spew. I've seen both Pilots and FOs have to deal with this.

DISCLAIMER: I have yet to see someone DEVELOP an airsickness issue once they start flying. The guys getting sick are the guys who have always gotten sick. While you aren't pulling any Gs (at least you shouldn't be, if you are, you have more serious problems than airsickeness), a brand new 3P at the controls can be 'interesting' until he gets the feel for anticipating pitch corrections in turns (read: UP AND DOWN AND UP AND DOWN AND UP AND...)

P-3 air conditioning was designed for low-mass, cool, dry air at altitude. Down low, they get overloaded (thats as far as I'm getting into that, have fun with EDC theory at the FRS). It's fairly common for one of the 2 compressors to sh!t the bed. Temps rise, especially in warmer areas (Gulf, South China Sea), required SV2s below 1000 feet, you get the idea.

 

[bigmouth]

Thanks. I definitely get the idea.

 

[USN99]

I will say this about "Flash", intelligent, reasoned, articulate- obviously an NFO. Also a little light on the ability to read. I recall the Forum is focused on "Advanced Prop". While Flash's comments about TacAir ring true, the Forum would seem to suggest that the SNA is headed for VP or VQ and the TacAir route has been foreclosed. TacAir references, while true, are inapplicable to this Forum.
The Maritime Recon & Attack moniker is borrowed from the RAF. How very English of them. Assuming Flash is the intelligent, reasoned, and articulate person I presume, he must have overlooked that the 'maritime' applies to both the recon and attack missions, e.g., maritime recon and maritime attack. Obvious to the articulate English speaker there is no inference whatsoever to the 'strike' mission, the purview of TacAir, of which Navy TacAir is actually the world's best.

Flash is most assuredly wrong about DH selection rates. VP has already contracted, the surplus DH's are about gone and DH ratios and selection rates have returned to be on par with VQ - VQ Flash, not VAQ. VQ is not expanding. VAQ is expanding. Don't confuse the two.

So lighten up Flash.

 

[Flash]

I will say this about "Flash", intelligent, reasoned, articulate- obviously an NFO.

Awww....I'm blushing :icon_smil.

Also a little light on the ability to read.

Not blushing anymore :icon_conf .

While Flash's comments about TacAir ring true, the Forum would seem to suggest that the SNA is headed for VP or VQ and the TacAir route has been foreclosed. TacAir references, while true, are inapplicable to this Forum.

Okay, so maybe I drop a few references to Tacair, but I thought you opened the door to it with this. From a pilots perspective, there isn't much manuevering and there never is the rush of running down on the deck, switching open bombay doors, and sending ordnance on the target.
Dropping ordnance on target is certainly done by P-3's, but not that common. Maybe I read too much into it.

The Maritime Recon & Attack moniker is borrowed from the RAF. How very English of them.

Since when did we start flying Nimrods? And when did we start wearing light blue?

Assuming Flash is the intelligent, reasoned, and articulate person I presume, he must have overlooked that the 'maritime' applies to both the recon and attack missions, e.g., maritime recon and maritime attack.

Wow, I get an English lesson as well as reading about Naval Aviation. Your right I misread it, but I was not the only one to do that...

and Flash, I did chuckle at "Maritime Reconnaisance and Attack mission", if only, if only...from Zab

Obvious to the articulate English speaker there is no inference whatsoever to the 'strike' mission, the purview of TacAir, of which Navy TacAir is actually the world's best.

The Navy does not use articulate English. Attack and strike in the US Navy are synonymous, that is where I was coming from. Why do we have VFA (Fighter/Attack)? It is a strike mission, why call it attack? Why don't we change VP to VPA? Your splitting hairs where the Navy does not. To put Attack anywhere in the VP title is not usually done and when they do, they do not get a lot of respect from other communities.

Flash is most assuredly wrong about DH selection rates. VP has already contracted, the surplus DH's are about gone and DH ratios and selection rates have returned to be on par with VQ - VQ Flash, not VAQ. VQ is not expanding. VAQ is expanding. Don't confuse the two.

Unfortunately, I am not wrong. I do not mean to scare the new guys, it will be largely worked out by the time they have to worry about it. The reality right now is not pretty for VP. VQ is maintaining its number of aircraft and people, there are so few to begin with. There are actually a small number of EP-3's being made right now. This is while P-3's are going from 220 to 150 right now. And VAQ is not expanding anymore. VAQ actually lost one of its 14 squadrons this year, I know because I was in it. And there have not been any Prowlers built in about 13 years. As for the official numbers for DH, don't trust me, here is a link to the BUPERS website and a brief under the title of DEPARTMENT HEAD SCREEN BOARD BRIEF:

http://www.bupers.navy.mil/pers43/Aviation_Boards/boards.htm

As for my own interest in this issue, I used to be a VQ guy and I still keep in touch with a lot of buddies from the community. As far as I know the only VQ (former) guy in this board. When I see stuff like this on the board...The P-3 Community is larger with more squadrons than EP-3. If you're interested in a career in naval aviation, you should consider flying a platform in a numerically larger community. A larger community means more flying slots, more department head jobs, more squadrons to command...I have to counterpoint it. It is not entirely accurate and I just want to make sure that the guy who asked the question in the first place gets all the info possible, from all sides. As I said before, you have roughly the same chance to make squadron command in both communities, it is beyond that the VP guys have the advantage. Anyways, size doesn't matter too much.....right? Just ask guys in HM, VRC, HC and VQ. The guys there have less of a chance of making Admiral (go VFA if you want the best chance at that) but they have just as much fun, even without dropping ordnance.

As for me, I don't mind a little back and forth......Can you?

 

[zab1001]

man this is great. someone else to argue with Flash.

on a lighter note I once saw an EP-3 crew evacuate a plane for smoke in the tube after starting 2 and 1. Rest assured, as the crew egressed via the overwing hatch, a linguist had actually made sure to bring the microwave with him.

COME ON! I'm busting on LINGUISTS! I can do that now!

 

[Flash]

man this is great. someone else to argue with Flash.

on a lighter note I once saw an EP-3 crew evacuate a plane for smoke in the tube after starting 2 and 1. Rest assured, as the crew egressed via the overwing hatch, a linguist had actually made sure to bring the microwave with him.

COME ON! I'm busting on LINGUISTS! I can do that now!

Finally, someone other than a drunken Spanish student to debate with.