P-3s--What's the community like?

[xj220]

There is still that real-world on top work going on now, but probably not at the amount it was for you. I've been fortunate enough to experience it and it is a pretty cool feeling to know that one of those guys is right there and it's one on one between the sub and you. Unfortunately, the age of the aircraft is starting to show itself as are some other issues which makes it all very frustrating. I'd say that's my biggest gripe right now along with a loss of identity/pride among fellow MPRA crew.

 

[Brett327]

http://p3reform.wordpress.com/2011/07/10/vp-30-sucks-and-heres-why/

This might be a repost...?... Found a link to this on a buddy's FB page. Interesting observations. I'll leave it to the resident P3 dudes to flame spray him or endorse his thoughts, but it did get me thinking... Why do P3 dudes have big ass patches that say "FRS Instructor" ? No other community has such a monstrosity of a patch or apparently screens folks for command when detailing them to their first shore tours...?

BTW, there are some great rant's on that website! Very curious to see what the prop dudes around here think of 'em.

Because being a PPC, TACCO or MC in that airplane comes after an unbelievable amount of BS. We don't have PPC (essentially being an aircraft commander) patch in TACAIR because you show up as one straight from the RAG. Not so in VP land. So, this tradition grows out of that. We also don't have duely designated IPs in our fleet squadrons like they do, so the big ugly patch thing starts even before they send someone to the RAG. Just the way it is.

Brett

 

[KBayDog]

http://p3reform.wordpress.com/2011/07/10/vp-30-sucks-and-heres-why/

BTW, there are some great rant's on that website! Very curious to see what the prop dudes around here think of 'em.

When did MB get orders to VP-30?

 

[MasterBates]

Because being a PPC, TACCO or MC in that airplane comes after an unbelievable amount of BS. We don't have PPC (essentially being an aircraft commander) patch in TACAIR because you show up as one straight from the RAG. Not so in VP land. So, this tradition grows out of that. We also don't have duely designated IPs in our fleet squadrons like they do, so the big ugly patch thing starts even before they send someone to the RAG. Just the way it is.

Brett

Equal amounts of BS in HSL & VAW as well but I don't have any HAC or CAPC patches. Just saying.

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[Jim123]

@schoolbubba- Some (most?) other communities have a separate WS with its own UIC. I'd bet the prestige of being the boss varies between communities. I'm kinda surprised to learn that it isn't at least a "special" or "OP-T" command in VP land.

@Brett- VAQ has) ANIs, right? I always thought that fleet squadron ANI was equivalent to fleet squadron (P-3) IP.

Does TACAMO call them ANI or IP?

Then again, I keep joking that I'm gonna make a TH-57 Tactics Instructor patch... maybe with an "I'm better than you are" slogan on it.

 

[KBayDog]

Then again, I keep joking that I'm gonna make a TH-57 Tactics Instructor patch... maybe with an "I'm better than you are" slogan on it.

Put me down for one.

 

[Brett327]

@schoolbubba- Some (most?) other communities have a separate WS with its own UIC. I'd bet the prestige of being the boss varies between communities. I'm kinda surprised to learn that it isn't at least a "special" or "OP-T" command in VP land.

@Brett- VAQ has) ANIs, right? I always thought that fleet squadron ANI was equivalent to fleet squadron (P-3) IP.

Does TACAMO call them ANI or IP?

Then again, I keep joking that I'm gonna make a TH-57 Tactics Instructor patch... maybe with an "I'm better than you are" slogan on it.

In the VAQ community we're called PTI or GTI (Prowler/Growler Tactics Instructor). Kind of apples and oranges WRT the IP comparison in my view. The VP guys have a lengthy upgrade syllabus for the pilots (and NFOs) and while NATOPS and Tactics are combined, the NATOPS side is a big part of it. In contrast, VAQ pilots come from the RAG as a full up round WRT being a fully NATOPS quallified aircraft commander. While there are other milestones like section/division lead, FCP, etc, all the other ACTC "upgrades" are within the realm of Tactics. The squadron has instructors of various types - all related to various tactical functions, the PTI being the "senior" intructor who administers the program and is ultimately the only person who can give a MC check.

Bottom line, the way each community handles NATOPS and their upgrade syllabii will drive how they configure their set of instructors. Different strokes...etc.

Brett

 

[PropStop]

In the VAQ community we're called PTI or GTI (Prowler/Growler Tactics Instructor). Kind of apples and oranges WRT the IP comparison in my view. The VP guys have a lengthy upgrade syllabus for the pilots (and NFOs) and while NATOPS and Tactics are combined, the NATOPS side is a big part of it. In contrast, VAQ pilots come from the RAG as a full up round WRT being a fully NATOPS quallified aircraft commander. While there are other milestones like section/division lead, FCP, etc, all the other ACTC "upgrades" are within the realm of Tactics. The squadron has instructors of various types - all related to various tactical functions, the PTI being the "senior" intructor who administers the program and is ultimately the only person who can give a MC check.

Bottom line, the way each community handles NATOPS and their upgrade syllabii will drive how they configure their set of instructors. Different strokes...etc.

Brett

There's been suggestions in the past of beefing up the VP-30 syllabus so that pilots leave as fully qualified 2Ps - but it would take a lot longer. To a certain extent, you cannot have the rag teach people to be fully qualified aircraft commanders, there's just too much to learn and not enough flights in VP-30 to learn it. When i did 30 there were only 9-10 flights and a few of those were tactics. Since we are multi-piloted we have the luxury of being able to upgrade folks in the squadron. Unfortunately, this can lead to a...diverse, shall we say... interpretations of NATOPS across the fleet. There's also a lot of technique that's taught, and often graded, and though effective is also not standardized.

I don't know what the solution really is. There simply are not enough planes at VP-30 or enough flight hours to get everyone enough experience in the War Pig to make me comfortable with them signing for a plane. You have no choice in a single pilot aircraft - the guy must be an A/C by the time he hits the fleet. From what i've heard jet pilots say about jets, fighters are pretty easy to fly, land (not at the boat), and navigate, because they are designed to be that way since there is only one pilot. The P-3 really isn't "easy" to fly - it gets easy and natural, but it isn't very ergonomic or user friendly. Add to that all the extra BS we put ourselves through doesn't really help us efficiently move through the upgrading process.

 

[HAL Pilot]

During my JO tour it was politics going to either RAG (VP-30 & VP-31) but you still had to actually be great in the plane and not just have the preception of being great. But the JOs did do "fun" and "work" in equal measures, at least on the west coast. East coast squadrons had the rep of being more work/less fun but there was still fun. A RAG instructor tour was not required to make CO, you could depart from the beaten path for a tour.

By my DH tour, going to VP-30 (sole remaining RAG) was all politics and very little aircraft performance. On the east coast now, and it seemed "fun" was limited. If you hadn't been a RAG instructor, you just reduced your chances of making CO by at least 75%. This was also the timeframe right after VP-31 shutdown and the east coast mafia gained complete control of VP. The east coast guys were basically hard asses who frowned upon the west coast guys as being unprofessional because they liked to have fun (needless to say, I did not view things quite the same way as my fellow DHs and the front office). The VP world would be a lot better off today if it was VP-31 that stuck around and VP-30 that closed. It would be a much "funner" community.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I don't know what the solution really is. There simply are not enough planes at VP-30 or enough flight hours to get everyone enough experience in the War Pig to make me comfortable with them signing for a plane. You have no choice in a single pilot aircraft - the guy must be an A/C by the time he hits the fleet. From what i've heard jet pilots say about jets, fighters are pretty easy to fly, land (not at the boat), and navigate, because they are designed to be that way since there is only one pilot. The P-3 really isn't "easy" to fly - it gets easy and natural, but it isn't very ergonomic or user friendly. Add to that all the extra BS we put ourselves through doesn't really help us efficiently move through the upgrading process.

Interesting perspective, but that all makes sense. I can't speak for other tacair communities, but in reality, Hornet Cat 1's are NATOPS/Instrument qual'd A/C commanders (at least when solo) generally by their 10th flight or so in the jet, depending on how soon after the FFAM solo they have the hours and approaches required. But that kind of goes with the mindset that there just isn't time in the syllabus to waste on those basics that are assumed to have been quickly mastered.....and you are right, jets are easy to fly in the basic admin environment. We have a good sim and flight fam syllabus, but it is fast and after it, you really don't see it again.....though if you fly old hand-me-down jets like we do, you get plenty of impromptu refreshers in daily ops

 

[CommodoreMid]

I obviously can't speak to the pilot side, but on the nfo side I think they could absolutely lengthen the syllabus. It's only 7 months now and since we come in unwinged, you could do a lot more teaching. Hell, teach up through the tacco systems syllabus!

Moot for me in 9 months anyway. I'll let you know how the p-8 cat 2 syllabus goes.

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[KBayDog]

Hell, teach up through the tacco systems syllabus!

You guys have taco stands back there, too?

 

[xj220]

To piggyback on what PropStop said, there's been a growing disappointment with the product that VP-30 produces. You really don't get many flights in the P-3 to feel comfortable by the time you leave and even then you may have SERE plus all the travel time before you check in to your fleet squadron. Not only that, when I was at -30 there were several occasions during the actual syllabus where I had an entire week off of not being scheduled. Great when you're a young, single JO but not great when you're trying to learn an entirely new aircraft, especially as complicated as the P-3. I know the aircraft issues are what are really restricting us, plus with the P-8A coming online shortly (got to tour it several times, what a beautiful jet) they're not willing to put much into the P-3 anymore. It feels almost lame duck except for the fact that we have a job to do.

 

[OnTopTime]

During my JO tour it was politics going to either RAG (VP-30 & VP-31) but you still had to actually be great in the plane and not just have the preception of being great. But the JOs did do "fun" and "work" in equal measures, at least on the west coast. East coast squadrons had the rep of being more work/less fun but there was still fun. A RAG instructor tour was not required to make CO, you could depart from the beaten path for a tour.

By my DH tour, going to VP-30 (sole remaining RAG) was all politics and very little aircraft performance. On the east coast now, and it seemed "fun" was limited. If you hadn't been a RAG instructor, you just reduced your chances of making CO by at least 75%. This was also the timeframe right after VP-31 shutdown and the east coast mafia gained complete control of VP. The east coast guys were basically hard asses who frowned upon the west coast guys as being unprofessional because they liked to have fun (needless to say, I did not view things quite the same way as my fellow DHs and the front office). The VP world would be a lot better off today if it was VP-31 that stuck around and VP-30 that closed. It would be a much "funner" community.

I was one of those guys that started out as an instructor at VP-31 and then did a mid-tour transfer to VP-30 as the RAGs consolidated. You're right, there absolutely was a different mindset between the two wardrooms, and it made for some "interesting" conflicts as the VP-31 guys got assimilated. It was easier for me and the other guys that had done our first tour on the east coast because we were familiar with the mentality having gone through VP-30 as students, but it was still a shame to see a big part of the west coast VP mindset disappear.

 

[OnTopTime]

You guys have taco stands back there, too?

Not on the P-3; that's a P-8 upgrade.