Well they DO need some way to catch up to their brethren in the VQ community . . .
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P-8 Video Story
- Thread starter HAL Pilot
- Start date
Second hand story (aren't they all) that I heard when I was stationed at Pax was that back in the mid-80's they played around with hanging AIM-9s on the Orion with some success.
Also heard (during same bull session) that during testing they found that an F-14 was unable to acheive a gun kill on the Orion as long as the P-3 flight station maintained visual on the Tomcat...the turn radius and slow speed manueverability of the Orion precluded the Tomcat from setting up for a successful gun run. Can't vouch the accuracy...but I can see it being possible at lower altitudes.
This video, goofy as it may be to some, is lightyears better than the original Boeing product. We previewed it at a MPRA Commander's Conference....lights were dimmed in the auditorium...stirring music came up...followed by the worst promo film ever made. The entire audience ended up giggling and/or shuffling uncomfortably in our seats.
If the new guys want to see what the VP side of the house is really about...go to Youtube and look up "Prop Gun". Good stuff.
Also heard (during same bull session) that during testing they found that an F-14 was unable to acheive a gun kill on the Orion as long as the P-3 flight station maintained visual on the Tomcat...the turn radius and slow speed manueverability of the Orion precluded the Tomcat from setting up for a successful gun run. Can't vouch the accuracy...but I can see it being possible at lower altitudes.
This video, goofy as it may be to some, is lightyears better than the original Boeing product. We previewed it at a MPRA Commander's Conference....lights were dimmed in the auditorium...stirring music came up...followed by the worst promo film ever made. The entire audience ended up giggling and/or shuffling uncomfortably in our seats.
If the new guys want to see what the VP side of the house is really about...go to Youtube and look up "Prop Gun". Good stuff.
I wouldn't believe that.
You should.
About 1987, VP-19 was on deployment when they were suddenly tasked to send a Det to Dhahran, Saudi Arabia to participate in Operation Earnest Will (reflagged Kuwaiti tanker thing). I was in VP-46 and we were scheduled to relieve VP-19. We went into max overdrive as all of a sudden, we were faced with a very real fighter threat. Lots of money, time and effort were quickly dumped into this as everyone felt sure that the VP-19 Det surviving on luck and they wanted VP-46 properly prepared.
Our planes received the now standard grey paint (first time this happened for VP), fuel tank foam, IR jammers, NVG lighting, and flare/chaff pods. All new for VP.
P-3s with the new gear were sent to the Nellis ranges to test the jammers and flare/chaff pods against their toys. P-3 DACM training/tactics were also conducted at Nellis where P-3s fought A-4s, F-14s, F-4s, F-16s and F-15s on the range.
The P-3 could out corner them all. If the P-3 denied the fighter the vertical by getting down on the deck, it could out turn them. The fighter was basically made to conduct diving strafing passes which the P-3 was easily able to avoid if the crew saw the fighter coming. It was a HUGE crew coordination exercise with aft observers, the TACCO and the NAV all talking to the flight station.
Of course a look down/shoot down missile or even a Sidewinder ended the show.....but in a gun flight when we could get to the deck, we won/escaped almost every time. And since that was the threat (the Iranians had shitty missile maintenance and they rarely worked), we felt pretty good about our chances.
I related in the past a story about being chased by a Iranian F-4 until we overflew a U.S. CG who locked him up and he turned away. We flew on the water and burned up the engines while he tail chased us but in the end, we only managed to stay in front of this guy by out turning him. Twice he got really close and we turned. He overshot us and it took a lot of airspace for him to come back around at his speed. I have no doubt he meant to gun us.
The mighty Warpig could easily get in a Sidewinder kill position if they are on the deck and the fighter tries turning with them. We did it on the Nellis ranges and the fighter guys were always amazed in the debriefed (as well as embarassed when the "guns, guns, guns" calls were heard from the P-3s......). The Pax Sidewinder experiments started after this and further showed it was a viable self defense weapon for the P-3. It was just too costly to justify for the very rare instance it might be needed (the Saudi stuff was over by then).
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
To translate for you jet wannabe types:
The P-3 (and almost every turboprop & helo) has more G (if not MAX G) available at speeds that jets will stall at. The rate of turn is far superior and the radius of turn is far smaller. You won't out turn one.
Make them fight YOUR fight, don't fight their fight.
The P-3 (and almost every turboprop & helo) has more G (if not MAX G) available at speeds that jets will stall at. The rate of turn is far superior and the radius of turn is far smaller. You won't out turn one.
Make them fight YOUR fight, don't fight their fight.
Great sea story! Man, we used to be so cool...
In all seriousness though, the above is absolutely true. We call it "Under-performing" the other guy. Of course, we'd get owned (or "pnwed" for your juniors) by a missile.
There is an unconfirmed story of one of those CIA blackop P-3s downing a Chinese MIG with some sort of air to air missile, way back in the day. I've never heard an official government comment on it, or unofficial for that matter.
Make no mistake, a fighter the P-3 is not, but the old pig has gone into some pretty tight places before and most came out alive, some did not.
There were quite a few incidents from VP-19, VP-46 and VP-9 when they did their 1988-1989 Saudi Arabia flying that unfortunately never got published in the Purples or Lessons Learned, or as tactics papers. Our being there (pre-Desert Storm) was very politically sensitive and we were not even officially allowed to say where we were. We called it "Det Bravo".
VP was too gun shy to publish what was happening out of fear someone would say it was too dangerous and tell us to go home. For instance, my incident was reported as an Iranian F-4 possibly trying to intercept or VID despite both AWACS and the CG screaming that it was trying to kill us.
The USS Roberts hitting the mine, the USS Vincennes Airbus shoot down, the USS Enterprise air wing sinking the Iranian frigates and a bunch of other "hostile" incidents during that time frame all had P-3 involvement that was not well documented by VP senior officers trying to "protect VPs ability to play". It was very frustrating.
And it didn't stop there. Thanksgiving 1996 I was in VP-16 doing EO over the Congo / Rwanda for UN refugee operations when we got shot at near Goma. My CO was the PPC and despite the distinctive row of black round clouds making a line across the sky off both sides of the plane and the tinkling of shrapnel on the fuselage, he reported "possible AA bursting at least 3 to 5 miles away from the aircraft". He was afraid they would pull us out of the high visibility mission. It didn't matter that they had already had C-12s shot at or that they had an AC-130 already flown in to pound the shit out of the next guys that decided to try it..... In fact, the CO was so adamant that it didn't happen, he refused to allow us to call home and tell our loved ones we were safe when the Stars & Stripes reporter we had on board told him it would be in the paper the next day.
The VP-46 plane that pulled parts of its wings off and barely made back to landing after a high speed pass in the Cocos Islands in 1988 was the plane that did the most DACM flights at Nellis prior to our deployment. This was the incident were the P-3 community learned about rolling g-forces. The g-meter showed their pull at the end of the pass was within limits but the post accident engineering showed much higher g-forces on the wings. It also showed pre-existing damage/cracks that were theorized to have come from the DACM flights. So what did VP do? They ended future DACM training where we actually fought the aircraft. It became all book learning after that.
VP has always been its own worst enemy. We hide from publicity and then wonder why we don't get new toys or funding.
VP was too gun shy to publish what was happening out of fear someone would say it was too dangerous and tell us to go home. For instance, my incident was reported as an Iranian F-4 possibly trying to intercept or VID despite both AWACS and the CG screaming that it was trying to kill us.
The USS Roberts hitting the mine, the USS Vincennes Airbus shoot down, the USS Enterprise air wing sinking the Iranian frigates and a bunch of other "hostile" incidents during that time frame all had P-3 involvement that was not well documented by VP senior officers trying to "protect VPs ability to play". It was very frustrating.
And it didn't stop there. Thanksgiving 1996 I was in VP-16 doing EO over the Congo / Rwanda for UN refugee operations when we got shot at near Goma. My CO was the PPC and despite the distinctive row of black round clouds making a line across the sky off both sides of the plane and the tinkling of shrapnel on the fuselage, he reported "possible AA bursting at least 3 to 5 miles away from the aircraft". He was afraid they would pull us out of the high visibility mission. It didn't matter that they had already had C-12s shot at or that they had an AC-130 already flown in to pound the shit out of the next guys that decided to try it..... In fact, the CO was so adamant that it didn't happen, he refused to allow us to call home and tell our loved ones we were safe when the Stars & Stripes reporter we had on board told him it would be in the paper the next day.
The VP-46 plane that pulled parts of its wings off and barely made back to landing after a high speed pass in the Cocos Islands in 1988 was the plane that did the most DACM flights at Nellis prior to our deployment. This was the incident were the P-3 community learned about rolling g-forces. The g-meter showed their pull at the end of the pass was within limits but the post accident engineering showed much higher g-forces on the wings. It also showed pre-existing damage/cracks that were theorized to have come from the DACM flights. So what did VP do? They ended future DACM training where we actually fought the aircraft. It became all book learning after that.
VP has always been its own worst enemy. We hide from publicity and then wonder why we don't get new toys or funding.
Isn't there some quote around here by some old dude about things changing yet staying the same...?
HAL,
Great story, and I can see how that would all be effective, especially against older radars and IR missles. AIM-9X, not so much... however.
That said, if I got shot down by a P-3 I think I'd just wave off the rescue helo and drown myself.
WTF is up with that video? 1200 mile range with 10 tanks, and only a 4 hour on station time? SWA could do better than that.
Great story, and I can see how that would all be effective, especially against older radars and IR missles. AIM-9X, not so much... however.
That said, if I got shot down by a P-3 I think I'd just wave off the rescue helo and drown myself.
WTF is up with that video? 1200 mile range with 10 tanks, and only a 4 hour on station time? SWA could do better than that.
Actually, not even close. the P-3 carries 20K more gas than a regular 737 (~40 vs ~60). The P-8 will suck down a LOT of gas when they are close to the deck. The 737 is designed, like most planes, to operate way high. Down low, props have a significant advantage in that regard.