Pass/Fail Lesson On Density Altitude

[usmarinemike]

I just can't figure out why somebody would even want to fly with that kind of performance. He had to have known he was terrifyingly close to the edge of the bucket just by how the controls felt...HAD TO! And then he goes and banks 45+ and holds it in after the horn goes off.

I feel bad for him and his family thinking maybe he wasn't trained properly, but I just don't get it.

 

[Rocketman]

Don't want you to reveal any secrets to your potential IFS studs, but what kind of things would you do? All we did in IFS was power on/ power off, and no spins.



Weren't spins done by WW1 pilots as a sort of penetration maneuver to get under the cloud deck to land? I think I remember hearing that somewhere.

I was doing spins Sunday in a 1-26 to get down to pattern altitude before the glider port closed. That little 1-26 doesn't spin all that well with the forward cg my big ass creates. If you kick it hard at the top of an agressive stall she'll get around pretty good though. More fun than pulling spoilers too.

 

[Gatordev]

I just can't figure out why somebody would even want to fly with that kind of performance.

It's not really out of the ordinary, nor is it as life threatening as the video shows if done properly. In the -57C on a hot day w/ heavy people, it will struggle to get airborne initially. I've had to roll a -60 down the runway on a hot day w/ a load full of people and 3 Hellfires on the side, just to be safe. I know those are helo-specific examples, but the fundamentals still apply.

 

[Jim123]

It's not really out of the ordinary, nor is it as life threatening as the video shows if done properly. In the -57C on a hot day w/ heavy people, it will struggle to get airborne initially. I've had to roll a -60 down the runway on a hot day w/ a load full of people and 3 Hellfires on the side, just to be safe. I know those are helo-specific examples, but the fundamentals still apply.

I agree- you're only gonna get lighter as fuel burns off. Also if you (are able to) launch after the hottest part of the day then performance will generally improve throughout the flight... ie. "done properly" = proper planning = fundamentals.

 

[jtmedli]

It could easily be the audio on the tape, but doesn't that Engine sound funny to you guys? Like the mixture wasn't set right or something?

 

[bubblehead]

It could easily be the audio on the tape...

I'd be more inclined to think the above. From the report:

The fire had warped and partially melted the VHS recorder... The intermittent gaps in the "engine rumbling noises" and the electronic "glitches" in the video and audio portions of the tape were caused by tree and ground impact damage along with heat from the fire as well as exposure to the elements for three years...

It's amazing to know that someone was able to restore the video data on the tape ribbon.

 

[jtmedli]

I'd be more inclined to think the above. From the report:



It's amazing to know that someone was able to restore the video data on the tape ribbon.

Wow..surprised the audio works at all then.

 

[bunk22]

I have complained for a long time about the poor stall and spin training in the civil aviation world. IMNHO, too many civilian CFI's are afraid to do stalls OR spins and to some degree that is driven by insurance companies and their ever increasing restrictions. Damned shame.
I will continue to be a hard ass with my studs and make them do stalls from all kinds of normally anticipated attitudes/configurations and a lot from the not anticipated ones that kill people. When I get done with them, they understand what a stall/spin is and understand all the elements. They make not like them, but they sure as hell understand them and that is my job as an instructor.

Which studs? IFS studs? Is that part of the syllabus for IFS? Afterall, they will get their basic training in Primary.

 

[Ducky]

Which studs? IFS studs? Is that part of the syllabus for IFS? Afterall, they will get their basic training in Primary.

Yes IFS studs, and yes stalls were part of the syllabus. Spins were not, and we did not do them. I was instructed by Flyinrock and I can personally say that he was a hardass, but it has paid off in dividends. I credit him with much of my initial success in primary, and I'm sure many of his other studs could vouch for the same. He stressed see and avoid/ head on a swivel more than any other Naval Aviator I have flown with. So yes they will get their basic training in primary, but I learned some very basic life savings skills that no IP has stressed to the degree flyinrock has.

RFR Rocky! Kaching

 

[bunk22]

Yes IFS studs, and yes stalls were part of the syllabus. Spins were not, and we did not do them. I was instructed by Flyinrock and I can personally say that he was a hardass, but it has paid off in dividends. I credit him with much of my initial success in primary, and I'm sure many of his other studs could vouch for the same. He stressed see and avoid/ head on a swivel more than any other Naval Aviator I have flown with. So yes they will get their basic training in primary, but I learned some very basic life savings skills that no IP has stressed to the degree flyinrock has.

RFR Rocky! Kaching

Well, well, sounds like you and flyinrock had one hell of a time in IFS. Beer buddies forever!! Congrats to both of you. Maybe the Primary IP's should take some of his flying lessons!!

 

[Ducky]

Congrats to both of you. Maybe the Primary IP's should take some of his flying lessons!!

Well, its never too late to stop learning.

 

[BACONATOR]

Well, its never too late to stop learning.

Well Despite the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm of the last couple posts, to get back to the OP, I always like to think if you aren't learning something every time you go fly, you should probably stop flying.

 

[bunk22]

Well Despite the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm of the last couple posts, to get back to the OP, I always like to think if you aren't learning something every time you go fly, you should probably stop flying.

The moment you stop learning is the moment something bad happens no doubt.

Well, its never too late to stop learning.

This is true and thank you for the advice!! When we need to learn to fly the mighty C172, we know who to come to :sleep_125

 

[FlyinRock]

Bunk22
Do I detect some disdain there? In IFS we are limited to what we can do and it rankles me but I do the best I can with the restrictions imposed. Of course Primary does things that I wish we could do, and in something besides the ubiquitous 172. This is not to take anything away from the IP's but we are operating under a completely different set of rules and my ass has been chewed more than once because I tried to take the training up a notch in anticipation of primary.
When I get an exceptional student I push them even harder knowing they have a serious shot at jets just as my "beer buddy" has done. We haven't partaken of adult beverages as yet but I fully expect to see him when he comes back to town with wings and solo time in the F18. Good job WWIII!!!
Semper Fi
Rocky

 

[bunk22]

Bunk22
Do I detect some disdain there? In IFS we are limited to what we can do and it rankles me but I do the best I can with the restrictions imposed. Of course Primary does things that I wish we could do, and in something besides the ubiquitous 172. This is not to take anything away from the IP's but we are operating under a completely different set of rules and my ass has been chewed more than once because I tried to take the training up a notch in anticipation of primary.
When I get an exceptional student I push them even harder knowing they have a serious shot at jets just as my "beer buddy" has done. We haven't partaken of adult beverages as yet but I fully expect to see him when he comes back to town with wings and solo time in the F18. Good job WWIII!!!
Semper Fi
Rocky

No old timer, no disdain here. I get it, you are proud of what you do and SNA2007 is happy to have trained under you. I was under the impression, mainly from not reading your post correctly, that you were spinning the studs and/or doing weird stuff/stalls in the air. I know not all GA aircraft are certified for spins as well. So I thought it weird and thus I asked. SNA2007 cleared it up a bit but he's going to get ribbed a bit regardless with his suck up post. He made it too easy and it's part of the club of those who will wear those wings, are wearing the wings or wore the wings. BTW though, how would you know who has a serious shot at jets?? You trying to take it up a notch for primary? Why? Isn't that what primary is for? When I went through, there was no IFS and I'm still not sold that there is a need for it now based of what I've seen...but that's just my opinion. Everything they are going to learn is taught to them in primary. But if you're proud of your work, SNA2007 is proud of your work, so be it. Nothing wrong with that.