Pcola = Joint (backseater) Meccah with standup of 479th TFG (for USAF CSO pipeline)

[cfam]

If that is so, then my current high regard for the new AF program will be highly damaged (Navy too?) .

The new program definitely isn't a joint Navy-Air Force venture. The Air Force is doing their own CSO thing with the T-6/T-1 off in the corner by themselves, while we're transitioning (eventually) to the UMFO syllabus, which will be T-6/T-45. Can't speak for the T-1 briefs, because my T-1 info's even more dated then Hozer's, but we still do things normally over in T-39 land. We do a student/ip brief in squadron spaces for 2ish hrs, then walk over to the contract pilot's spaces for a 10-15min crew brief prior to walking.

 

[wink]

Well I knew we weren't talking a joint program here. But it was sounding like the Navy had adopted the Supe thing. But it appears the navy side is much like I remember, except the contract pilot came to us in the ready room and sat down for the last 12-20 minutes. I'd still like to know what purpose the Operations Supe serves in the new AF program.

 

[nittany03]

The new program definitely isn't a joint Navy-Air Force venture. The Air Force is doing their own CSO thing with the T-6/T-1 off in the corner by themselves, while we're transitioning (eventually) to the UMFO syllabus, which will be T-6/T-45. Can't speak for the T-1 briefs, because my T-1 info's even more dated then Hozer's, but we still do things normally over in T-39 land. We do a student/ip brief in squadron spaces for 2ish hrs, then walk over to the contract pilot's spaces for a 10-15min crew brief prior to stepping.

Hmm. Seems to me like there's more AF influence than you give them credit for. :icon_tong

 

[cfam]

:icon_tong Touche

 

[magnetfreezer]

Don't know the specifics of the T-1 program, but on the operational side the Sup will brief/ensure the crew has items like WX, airfield status/NOTAMS, BASH, flight plan/weight and balance. They will also pass any mission changes from the squadron leadership and ensure FCIF (read and initial) are signed off, no one is recorded as med down, etc. as well as updating on aircraft status/load from MX.

Duty dog is usually a JO, with Ops Sup/Top 3 being an ADO (department head) or higher generally. They have some of the discretion that a CDO would have; many things however require Ops Group (O-6) commander approval.

 

[HackerF15E]

What is "over the shoulder training" and what is the purpose of the Supe brief? Can the Supe turn away the stud and say "thanks for playing, try again."? Is he just making sure there is a flight plan and weather brief or asking the EP of the day? If that is so, then my current high regard for the new AF program will be highly damaged (Navy too?) .

Can't speak for how it works in the new CSO squadron, but if it's anything like the rest of the AF, it works something like this....

First off, he's the "Operations Supervisor"; it's a duty officer position, except it's not just some faceless position that an O-1 fills because there has to be a warm body there. Instead, it's the Squadron Commander's direct operational representative on a daily basis -- he's the dude who is running the flying operations. In the fighter world, we called the position the "Top 3", because the position was filled by the top 3 positions in the squadron (SQ/CC, SQ/DO, and SQ/ADO).

It's meant to be the senior operations guy in the squadron, and it's his job to make sure the scheduled flying is executed safely, efficiently, legally, etc. He's the interface with maintenance, matching up scheduled sortie lines with the flight-suits that will fill those lines. He's setting the flying status based on weather (and working with the SOF, natch). He's making sure the IPs have their own act together and aren't going to plan/execute that is stupid or not legal (you might be surprised how much this happens given the volume of flying that takes place in the training environment).

Yes, he has all the authority in the world to turn crews back and say "you're not ready to go fly...you're done for the day".
He's not just a face that stands by the door and gives some briefing.

 

[Brett327]

Can't speak for how it works in the new CSO squadron, but if it's anything like the rest of the AF, it works something like this....

First off, he's the "Operations Supervisor"; it's a duty officer position, except it's not just some faceless position that an O-1 fills because there has to be a warm body there. Instead, it's the Squadron Commander's direct operational representative on a daily basis -- he's the dude who is running the flying operations. In the fighter world, we called the position the "Top 3", because the position was filled by the top 3 positions in the squadron (SQ/CC, SQ/DO, and SQ/ADO).

It's meant to be the senior operations guy in the squadron, and it's his job to make sure the scheduled flying is executed safely, efficiently, legally, etc. He's the interface with maintenance, matching up scheduled sortie lines with the flight-suits that will fill those lines. He's setting the flying status based on weather (and working with the SOF, natch). He's making sure the IPs have their own act together and aren't going to plan/execute that is stupid or not legal (you might be surprised how much this happens given the volume of flying that takes place in the training environment).

Yes, he has all the authority in the world to turn crews back and say "you're not ready to go fly...you're done for the day".
He's not just a face that stands by the door and gives some briefing.

In other words, your standard Navy LTJG SDO. Hacker, in the fleet, these are the exact same responsibilities we give to first tour aviators and there might be more to SDO then you may have seen in a Navy TRACOM. For anyone who hasn't operated with the USAF a bunch, they just have a different philosophy on how to do daily flight ops, or direct traffic in a parking lot. Both of these may require the seasoned experience of an O5.

Brett

 

[HackerF15E]

In other words, your standard Navy LTJG SDO. Hacker, in the fleet, these are the exact same responsibilities we give to first tour aviators and there might be more to SDO then you may have seen in a Navy TRACOM. For anyone who hasn't operated with the USAF a bunch, they just have a different philosophy on how to do daily flight ops, or direct traffic in a parking lot. Both of these may require the seasoned experience of an O5.

Brett

Well, if your SQ/CC feels like entrusting the running of the Squadron when he's not there (it's not directing traffic -- it's running the operations of a military flying organization) to an O-2, then great. That's not how it's worked in any place I've flown...and, having been on the other side of that desk plenty of times, I sure as hell wouldn't ever want an O-2 making the kind of decisions that such a position has to make on a daily basis.

If your point is "look at the AF, what a bunch of retards because they want a high ranking/experienced person supervising their flying operations", well then...yeah. Fire away. Guess we're a bunch of retards by your standard and not as badass/cool as you are.

 

[Brett327]

Well, if your SQ/CC feels like entrusting the running of the Squadron when he's not there (it's not directing traffic -- it's running the operations of a military flying organization) to an O-2, then great. That's not how it's worked in any place I've flown...and, having been on the other side of that desk plenty of times, I sure as hell wouldn't ever want an O-2 making the kind of decisions that such a position has to make on a daily basis.

If your point is "look at the AF, what a bunch of retards because they want a high ranking/experienced person supervising their flying operations", well then...yeah. Fire away. Guess we're a bunch of retards by your standard and not as badass/cool as you are.

Like I said, that is standard in a fleet Navy squadron. My point is, we do things differently.

Brett

 

[wink]

He's the interface with maintenance, matching up scheduled sortie lines with the flight-suits that will fill those lines. He's setting the flying status based on weather (and working with the SOF, natch).

Having just watched the 1500 launch brief the weather, mission, aircraft status and aircrew issues our intrepid LT SDO picks up the bat phone and punches up Maintenance Control:

SDO: Hey Senior Chief, I need the line up for events 4, and 5.

MX Control: Yes sir, lets go with 701 and 708. Oh and if we don’t get the radar altimeter fixed on 705 it will be down for night flight. I may have to give you 710 for that SSC event and the radar is still less than perfect. Sorry about that.

SDO: No worries Senior, let me know as soon as you make the call.

SDO yelling across the RR to the briefing crew: Smitty you guys have 701, Rat you guys take 708. Watch the number two EGT it was just a bit hot yesterday.

CO walks into RR and yells at the SDO: If that coffee isn’t fresh you are getting your hair cut high and tight!

Walking by the duty desk with coffee in hand the CO asks: How is Mx Control treating us today.
SDO: No sweat sir, we have it wired.

CO: Oh, I ran into Bummer in the gym, he says he has to wave for some limp dick VF guy that is flying off because his son has cancer, his mother died and his wife is in labor with triplets. You will have to replace him tonight.

Our trap bagging SDO is quick to reply: Relieve me early skipper and I’ll take his flight.

CO sips his coffee and grimaces: I’ll relieve you early alright but you will be sitting in a barber’s chair not an Escapac II

 

[Brett327]

it's not directing traffic -- it's running the operations of a military flying organization

My directing traffic in a parking lot comment wasn't a metaphor. I actually observed a USAF O5 directing traffic in a hangar parking lot in Misawa.

Brett

 

[Beans]

Well, if your SQ/CC feels like entrusting the running of the Squadron when he's not there (it's not directing traffic -- it's running the operations of a military flying organization) to an O-2, then great. That's not how it's worked in any place I've flown...and, having been on the other side of that desk plenty of times, I sure as hell wouldn't ever want an O-2 making the kind of decisions that such a position has to make on a daily basis.

If your point is "look at the AF, what a bunch of retards because they want a high ranking/experienced person supervising their flying operations", well then...yeah. Fire away. Guess we're a bunch of retards by your standard and not as badass/cool as you are.

Yeah, from the 1st Tour very junior not-at-all-salty JO standpoint, that is almost exactly what we do. In my squadron (an HSL-type), we basically run the schedule and try to get as much of it (+whatever MX Ctrl wants on the FCF side) done. We debrief our XO daily, and brief him/her on any crew or major time/mission changes that are required, but the idea is we come to the XO w/ a plan and he/she signs off on it. The O-5 role is merely oversight. If the XO/CO have to get any more involved than that, then there are several levels of f'ed-upedness in progress, and the JO has failed to make a good impression leadership-wise. I'll never say you AF fliers are retards, but I will argue that we're smarter until my last breath.

 

[HackerF15E]

I will argue that we're smarter until my last breath.

Wow, so there's some magic IQ enhancement when you get commissioned under the SecNav instead of the SecAF. That's phenomenal.

 

[A4sForever]

Wow, so there's some magic IQ enhancement when you get commissioned under the SecNav instead of the SecAF...

Hacker, Hacker, Hacker ... you KNOW we LOVE you, but:

I gotta' tell ya' ... when I flew against the vaunted AF 'best of the best' @ the Nellis FWS and the boys @ Tyndall (actually those boys were comin' outta' Eglin and many were STUDs) ...

The BEST F-15 drivers (two, to be precise) that I flew against were O-5's (like myself) and they had flown F-4s in Vietnam ... they KNEW how to take that beautiful taxpayer-funded machine (your (B)Eagle) and make it sit up an' 'talk' against USN Adversaries ... and in the debrief -- THEY LOVED WHAT WE (NAVY GUYS) DID AND THE RELATIVE 'FREEDOM' they had when flyin' against/with us ... !!!

And compared to what we were usually offered when drilling the AF ... that's sayin' a LOT, Bruddah.

Peace & love ...

 

[nittany03]

Wow, so there's some magic IQ enhancement when you get commissioned under the SecNav instead of the SecAF. That's phenomenal.

Well, to be specific, it's not an IQ enhancement per se. It's a "good looks" enhancement, and that just makes everyone think we're smarter. Funny how that works.