14 DHs? Jeezus. What did they do all day?
-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
Pilot shortage?
- Thread starter webmaster
- Start date
@R1, would it be better for you if you we all just said "you're right, we're wrong..."?
This one can't pass without some further explanation....?
Do not understand why the "sharp Lieutenants wouldn't be promotable, how then could they be considered "sharp"?
You have been spared, I recall no such litany!
BzB
Look…no food fight here…I don't think. But the Navy and Marine Corps can only play with the cards in their deck. As a very junior officer…and even as a squadron CO…I agonized/wondered "why" some of the best folks I'd ever seen opted to end their Naval service (personal heroes/role models in my JO days…MiG killers even…and then, later, uber-JOs who could have gone on to a wonderful career…natural leadership and airmanship skills…great "peer cred" in the Ready Room…you get the idea…).Do not understand why the "sharp Lieutenants wouldn't be promotable, how then could they be considered "sharp"?
You have been spared, I recall no such litany!
BzB
In every case, the squadron, the Air Wing, the "organization writ large" soldiered on without the loss of a heart beat. It's the old "finger in a glass of water" thing…the finger is important…while it's there... but when you pull it out…it's still a glass of water with little/no discernible difference.
BzB: What I meant to say was that "sharp Lieutenants" who decide to leave the service aren't in the mix…their opting for USNR status in some capacity can obviously change this.
You can only feed the fish who remain in the pond. Probably a shitty metaphor, but that was my point.
If everyone else's point is that "every good JO who leaves the service is reflective of a failure of leadership", well, that is not now, nor ever has been, the case. Everyone has different goals/stressors/family situations/capabilities. I was always happy for the very talented who gave at least their MSR to the nation. Some stayed…some didn't. Oh well...
because a 20 year career is not everyone's priority/goal/desire - and THAT IS OK. It does not make the contributions they made during initial sea and shore tour any less valuable. And we should not wrap for them when they move on to their "grown up careers/lives". The dangerous line you routinely walk (write) around here is one that almost discredits everything except a 20-25 year career (or more if one cares to play the flag game).
This is coming from someone with too many skins in the game at this point to leave prior to 20 - there's your perspective.
But when a large majority of those good JO's would have (and wanted to) stay in before getting fed up with failures of leadership, then you have to wonder if maybe the ship would ride a little better if that leadership problem wasn't present.
Actually despite being AF fighter pilot focused, this note sums up my view on the situation well.
From a Retired Pilot:
We used to go to the Officers Club or NCO Club Stag Bar on Friday afternoons to drink, smoke and swap lies with our comrades. Think about this when you read the rest of the letter below.
What happened to our Air Force/Marines/Army/Navy/CG... (or Military)?
Drinking then became frowned on. Smoking caused cancer and could "harm you."
Stag bars became seen as 'sexist'. Gradually, our men quit patronizing their clubs because what happened in the club became fodder for a performance report.
It was the same thing at the Airman's Club and the NCO and/or Top 3 clubs. Now we don't have separate clubs for the ranks.
Instead we have something called All Ranks Clubs or community clubs. They're open to men and women of all ranks....from airman basic to general officer.
Still, no one is there. Gee, I wonder why.
The latest brilliant thought out of Washington is that the operators ("pilots?") flying remote aircraft in combat areas from their plush desk at duty stations in Nevada or Arizona should draw the same combat pay as those real world pilots actually on board a plane in a hostile environment. More politically correct logic? They say that remote vehicle operators are subject to the same stress levels as the combat pilot actually flying in combat. ----- REALLY...you're bull-shitting me, right !!!???
Now that I've primed you a little, read on.
There are many who will agree with these sentiments, but they apply to more than just fighter pilots. Unfortunately, the ones with the guts to speak up or push for what they believe in are beaten down by the "system."
"Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in the following text - supposedly, Secretary Gates had a force beating the bushes to learn who wrote this....
Where have all the fighter pilots gone?
Good Question.
Here is a rant from a retired fighter pilot that is worth reading:
It is rumored that our current Secretary of Defense recently asked the question, "Where are all the dynamic leaders of the past?" I can only assume, if that is true, that he was referring to Robin Olds, Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, Ike, Boyington, Nimitz, etc.?
Well, I've got the answer:
They were fired before they made Major! Our nation doesn't want those kinds of leaders anymore. Squadron commanders don't run squadrons and wing commanders don't run wings. They are managed by higher ranking dildos with other esoteric goals in mind.
Can you imagine someone today looking for a LEADER to execute that Doolittle Raid and suggesting that it be given to a dare-devil boozer - his only attributes: he had the respect of his men, an awesome ability to fly, and the organizational skills to put it all together? If someone told me there was a chance in hell of selecting that man today, I would tell them they were either a liar or dumber than shit.
I find it ironic that the Air Force put Brigadier General Robin Olds on the cover of the company rag last month.
While it made me extremely proud to see his face, he wouldn't make it across any base in America (or overseas) without ten enlisted folks telling him to zip up his flight suit, get rid of the cigarette, and shave his mustache off.
I have a feeling that his response would be predictable and for that crime he would probably get a trip home and an Article 15. We have lost the war on rugged individualism and that, unfortunately, is what fighter pilots want to follow; not because they have to but because they respect leaders of that ilk.
We've all run across that leader that made us proud to follow him because you wanted to be like him and make a difference. The individual who you would drag your testicles through glass for rather than disappoint him.
We better wake the hell up! We're asking our young men and women to go to really shitty places; some with unbearable climates, never have a drink, have little or no contact with the opposite sex, not look at magazines of a suggestive nature of any type, and adhere to ridiculous regs that require you to tuck your shirt into your PT uniform on the way to the porta-shitter at night, in a blinding dust storm, because it's a uniform.
These people we're sending to combat are some of the brightest I've met but they are looking for a little sanity, which they will only find on the outside if we don't get a friggin' clue. You can't continue asking people to live for months or years at a time acting like nuns and priests. Hell, even they get to have a beer.
Who are we afraid of offending? The guys that already hate us enough to strap C-4 to their own bodies and walk into a crowd of us? Think about it.
I'm extremely proud of our young men and women who continue to serve. I'm also very in tune with what they are considering for the future and I've got news for whoever sits in the White House, Congress, and our so-called military leaders.
Much talent has and will continue to hemorrhage from our services, because wanna-be warriors are tired of fighting on two fronts - - one with our enemies, another against our lack of common sense.
Take it or leave it....that's just the way it is, no. if's, and's, or but's..........
From a Retired Pilot:
We used to go to the Officers Club or NCO Club Stag Bar on Friday afternoons to drink, smoke and swap lies with our comrades. Think about this when you read the rest of the letter below.
What happened to our Air Force/Marines/Army/Navy/CG... (or Military)?
Drinking then became frowned on. Smoking caused cancer and could "harm you."
Stag bars became seen as 'sexist'. Gradually, our men quit patronizing their clubs because what happened in the club became fodder for a performance report.
It was the same thing at the Airman's Club and the NCO and/or Top 3 clubs. Now we don't have separate clubs for the ranks.
Instead we have something called All Ranks Clubs or community clubs. They're open to men and women of all ranks....from airman basic to general officer.
Still, no one is there. Gee, I wonder why.
The latest brilliant thought out of Washington is that the operators ("pilots?") flying remote aircraft in combat areas from their plush desk at duty stations in Nevada or Arizona should draw the same combat pay as those real world pilots actually on board a plane in a hostile environment. More politically correct logic? They say that remote vehicle operators are subject to the same stress levels as the combat pilot actually flying in combat. ----- REALLY...you're bull-shitting me, right !!!???
Now that I've primed you a little, read on.
There are many who will agree with these sentiments, but they apply to more than just fighter pilots. Unfortunately, the ones with the guts to speak up or push for what they believe in are beaten down by the "system."
"Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in the following text - supposedly, Secretary Gates had a force beating the bushes to learn who wrote this....
Where have all the fighter pilots gone?
Good Question.
Here is a rant from a retired fighter pilot that is worth reading:
It is rumored that our current Secretary of Defense recently asked the question, "Where are all the dynamic leaders of the past?" I can only assume, if that is true, that he was referring to Robin Olds, Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, Ike, Boyington, Nimitz, etc.?
Well, I've got the answer:
They were fired before they made Major! Our nation doesn't want those kinds of leaders anymore. Squadron commanders don't run squadrons and wing commanders don't run wings. They are managed by higher ranking dildos with other esoteric goals in mind.
Can you imagine someone today looking for a LEADER to execute that Doolittle Raid and suggesting that it be given to a dare-devil boozer - his only attributes: he had the respect of his men, an awesome ability to fly, and the organizational skills to put it all together? If someone told me there was a chance in hell of selecting that man today, I would tell them they were either a liar or dumber than shit.
I find it ironic that the Air Force put Brigadier General Robin Olds on the cover of the company rag last month.
While it made me extremely proud to see his face, he wouldn't make it across any base in America (or overseas) without ten enlisted folks telling him to zip up his flight suit, get rid of the cigarette, and shave his mustache off.
I have a feeling that his response would be predictable and for that crime he would probably get a trip home and an Article 15. We have lost the war on rugged individualism and that, unfortunately, is what fighter pilots want to follow; not because they have to but because they respect leaders of that ilk.
We've all run across that leader that made us proud to follow him because you wanted to be like him and make a difference. The individual who you would drag your testicles through glass for rather than disappoint him.
We better wake the hell up! We're asking our young men and women to go to really shitty places; some with unbearable climates, never have a drink, have little or no contact with the opposite sex, not look at magazines of a suggestive nature of any type, and adhere to ridiculous regs that require you to tuck your shirt into your PT uniform on the way to the porta-shitter at night, in a blinding dust storm, because it's a uniform.
These people we're sending to combat are some of the brightest I've met but they are looking for a little sanity, which they will only find on the outside if we don't get a friggin' clue. You can't continue asking people to live for months or years at a time acting like nuns and priests. Hell, even they get to have a beer.
Who are we afraid of offending? The guys that already hate us enough to strap C-4 to their own bodies and walk into a crowd of us? Think about it.
I'm extremely proud of our young men and women who continue to serve. I'm also very in tune with what they are considering for the future and I've got news for whoever sits in the White House, Congress, and our so-called military leaders.
Much talent has and will continue to hemorrhage from our services, because wanna-be warriors are tired of fighting on two fronts - - one with our enemies, another against our lack of common sense.
Take it or leave it....that's just the way it is, no. if's, and's, or but's..........
magnetfreezer
Well-Known Member
Don't know how the PME/staff timeline works on the Navy side, but on the AF side guys generally have the most experience/recency of experience as junior-mid O4s or JOs. Coincidentally, that's also when the flight school commitment is up. When all the go-to IPs/IWSOs get out (seen 50% of the IWSOs in a year group punch in certain squadrons), trying to use corporate America solutions doesn't help. If Google loses a senior engineer, they can hire one from Amazon/etc if they spend enough - no matter how much the Navy/AF increases flight school production, they won't be able to replace the instructor cadre until those guys go through 3-4 years of fleet experience.
The ones who do stay in end up going to several years of school/staff work before their XO/command slots; when they get back to operational units, they end up with a squadron of mostly brand new JOs, the CO/XO as the most experienced instructors, and a smattering of O4s/O5s brought back to the community from random shore jobs who need instructors as well since they haven't flown in 5 years. Figuring out why the expertise is leaving and changing what's causing them to leave seems like a much smarter idea than throwing money at the problem (AF).
Then I've been doing it wrong…and that's on me.
I simply can't state it any clearer than this: I valued and treasured every hero/role model/room mate/Uber-JO who ever worked for me…they did their part, and no one could reasonably ask anything more. Their goals were different from mine. Maybe they were right, but who knows? It was their lives to live…and their decisions to make. As was mine.
Now…you tell me…when have I ever discredited anyone who doesn't opt for the long career? That would be counter to every life experience I've ever had.
For me re: Navy Career. When I was in the last year of my first shore tour as an FRS IP, and my Navy commitment, I was a senior O-3E w/ 12 yrs. The airlines were on a hiring binge, with their headhunters actually visiting our Ready Room. Having received several invites/offers, after some agonizing thought, and thorough dicussions with Mrs. Bee (and with the smell of war in the air - summer of '64), I decided to stay. I guarantee, had the Navy been anything like the Navy of today, I'd have gone "Busdriver" in a heartbeat!
About half my contemporaries finishing their commitments that year, left for the airlines, and all made Captain, and had long productive careers. Excepting a few anxious moments of sheer terror during my 2nd sea tour,
I never regretted my career decision, it was just a different Navy.
BzB
About half my contemporaries finishing their commitments that year, left for the airlines, and all made Captain, and had long productive careers. Excepting a few anxious moments of sheer terror during my 2nd sea tour,
I never regretted my career decision, it was just a different Navy.BzB
BzB: I doubt that, my friend. Like it or not…you and I were just "wired differently". Not better…not worse…just differently.
You may well be right, given the impending conflict & my attack/weapons delivery readiness at that time. At this point it's just conjecture, we'll never know!BzB: I doubt that, my friend. Like it or not…you and I were just "wired differently". Not better…not worse…just differently.
BzB
Well, it's just "conjecture" on my part, of course, but every decision we ever made was BEST made at the time…knowing what we knew then and how we thought we could contribute in the future. There were...and are…different ways to steer the horse cart.You may well be right, given the impending conflict & my attack/weapons delivery readiness at that time. At this point it's just conjecture, we'll never know!
BzB
I had one of those "PPC-buts" for a 2P this last deployment. Great guy, not spectacular as a pilot. It is added stress as a PPC/MC when you can't walk to the back of the bus and take a piss without wondering if you are going to punch through standoff...
He probably has more direct influence on how I grade my primary studs than anything else I've encountered. I will do anything in my power to prevent that level of talent from advancing to the next level.
Unfortunately some people don't like being "the bad guy" and the trash gets passed. Sometimes all the way to O-4...I'd rather have 8 good pilots than 12 mediocre/crappy pilots.
Last edited:
The problem is when those "warm bodies" turn cold and shitty attitudes prevail. Then they may as well be gone.