"Pilots Pull Rank, Declare Emergency At JFK (With Audio)"

[A4sForever]

Rumor I got is they landed with 6500 lbs of fuel? After 3 turns in holding prior to approach..

Discuss...

Not brought up in the audio tapes but noteworthy, nonetheless.

I try not to do 'rumors', cause they're frequently wrong (not always, just frequently) ... but I like simple math problems 'cause I'm a simple man ... especially when I look over my shoulder and ask questions like: ''how much fuel do we have left ... ''???

I don't know what a -67 burns in the pattern per approach (HAL or CAT or Wink?), but just off the top of my head ...

B767 holds @ 24,000 gallons w/ a full bag ...
Jet-A weighs @ 6.7#/gallon ... API average density @ 15 degree C ...
24,000 gal x 6.7#/gal = 160,800# full bag (obviously not what they required at that point; just comparing amounts) ...

6,500# onboard
--------------------- = not very much gas if we get routed 'round the pattern ...
160,800# full-bag

Discussion?? Different amounts of fuel on different birds 'sounds' different ... whatever that means ... but this just doesn't sound like a lot of gas -- but then I never flew the -67, so who cares what a Whale-driver thinks ...

 

[HAL Pilot]

If this is true, that would be the "more to the story" that is missing. The Low Fuel light in the 767-300 comes on at 2200 lbs in a main tank - since it comes on when the first reaches 2200 lbs, you should have at least 4400 lbs total or 22 mins of flight left (200lbs/min). So if he had 6500 lbs,. he would have just over 30 mins. But down low and dirty, it would obviously be less.

However, I still have problems with this. The pilot never said emergency fuel or indicated any type of fuel problem. If this is "the rest of the story", he should have articulated this to ATC. A simple "Fly Runway heading, be advised we have a fuel emergency and must land without any delay" would have solved a lot of conflicts, problems or misunderstandings and gotten him the priority handling he needed.

Granted we only have one small clip of ATC audio but it just seems he came spring-loaded for a fight.

 

[jt71582]

A4s, they had API when you went through???

I guess I'll go look for your class photo at North Island NAS =) I kid, I kid. **end threadjack**

 

[A4sForever]

.... If this is "the rest of the story", he should have articulated this to ATC. A simple "Fly Runway heading, be advised we have a fuel emergency and must land without any delay" would have solved a lot of conflicts, problems or misunderstandings and gotten him the priority handling he needed.....

Roger that; and with a go-around and then getting fed back into the traffic for a 31 landing ... he would have been REALLY low on fuel when he blocked in at the gate ... there's no way out of that situation 'cause when the mechs check on post-flight, the fuel -- or lack thereof -- is plainly obvious (a hypothetical 'situation' here, to be sure ... but we're just discussing ... )

He might have thought ''I just put myself on report'' by declaring a ''low fuel emergency'' w/out ever giving ATC a previous head's-up as to his dwindling bag of gas. But if you're ''on report'' ... it's gonna' happen anyway, so do the right thing.

If this WAS the reason for ''EMERGENCY'' call ... then it's gonna' all come out in the wash, anyway -- so why not let ATC know 'early & often' if you have a fuel situation developing ... like I said (assuming fuel, for the sake of argument), he should have said something to approach/tower.

It's easy to RR-Commando-second-guess ... but in the real world I've been there before -- but I always went ''pro-active early'', rather than waiting until I'm in the shorthairs and then telling someone ''I don't have any gas .. ''

There's no points for being silent, unless it's ''zip-lip at the ship'' ... yes, I know ... it rhymes.

 

[A4sForever]

A4s, they had API when you went through???....

I can't remember ... I think they called it ''Pre-Flight'' ... the memory banks are fog enshrouded and rusty.

This was our initial BOAT brief, however. Some things you don't forget:

 

[ImfromJersey]

I am still curious to see what the general thoughts are to the pilot's reaction and decision to pull off the approach and into the visual without any traffic advisories or instruction. Obviously, other planes were affected and directed by approach to call off their own approaches. I can see the danger in the air, simply with a mid-air, but there was also danger on the ground too. Planes crossing the inactive, personnel, etc. This guy imparted his own dangerous situation on hundreds of other people potentially. I understand that declaring an emergency is sometimes the call and you need to do what you need to do to get the plane safely on deck, but this guy could have created a much more serious condition. Even with a declared emergency, I'm sure tower or approach would have given him immediate vectors to a short final, it may have taken some time, but at least they would have proactively cleared the way rather than re-actively scrambling after the AA captain screamed at them to do so. I realize that hind sight is 20/20 and fortunately nothing happened and everyone was fine, but isn't this pilot somewhat in the wrong for what he did? I'm sure we've all been in jets during emergency situations, myself included, but my first priority was to make sure I didn't turn one into more. We brief this every flight. "In case of ejection, level the wings and get your pitot tube pointed away from my jet, I don't want to turn one ejection into two..." Thoughts?

 

[MakeNoise]

6500 lbs is just above an Emergency fuel in the 767.

It seemed to be below his comfort level, which is reason enough to declare an emergency. If this was the case, he probably should've let ATC know he was min fuel before he let himself get into a box, where the only way out was to declare an emergency and make it everyones problem. As far as breaking off an approach from one runway to another in VMC conditions with TCAS, I personally don't think it's all that dangerous. Is it the perfect solution to this problem- No, could he have avoided this by fessing up earlier- Yes. However, it sounds like he picked the safest course of action at that point. The problem was he probably shouldn't have let himself get cornered into that situation in the first place.

On the flip side of that coin, there are a lot of variables that drove him to that spot in the first place and I promise you he's a way more experienced than me (so this could happen to most of us). Bottom line- he got his plane and pax on the ground safely. Bravo Zulu.

 

[A4sForever]

.... and I promise you he's a way more experienced than me ....

Right; and so am I.

There's MANY things wrong w/ your appreciation of the ''potential'' situation and the ''potential'' ramifications -- but let's just assume the situation all of us are talkin' about is a ''possible'' ... w/ that assumption, I'll tear your rationale apart tomorrow. I just don't feel like gettin' into it tonight.

Instead, I feel like having a smooth drink right now ... so mebbe tomorrow ... ???

 

[wink]

... he probably should've let ATC know he was min fuel before he let himself get into a box, where the only way out was to declare an emergency and make it everyones problem. ... No, could he have avoided this by fessing up earlier- Yes. However, it sounds like he picked the safest course of action at that point. The problem was he probably shouldn't have let himself get cornered into that situation in the first place.

We only heard the end of the story, not, as Paul Harvey used to say, the "rest of the story." He may have very well pleaded his case to center and even approach. We don't have that tape. If he was so low on fuel I am almost certain he advised ATC before he ever got to Tower. If you advise low fuel and Center breaks you out of the hold immediately, but approach isn't quite so helpful and maybe a promised runway change doesn't transpire and Tower is jacking you around, well then maybe declaring an emergency earlier would have been more helpful for ATC coordinating but then maybe if ATC was more helpful on advisement of a min fuel (non emergency) state, then it would not have gotten to the point of an emergency with Tower.

 

[MakeNoise]

I'll tear your rationale apart tomorrow.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Spoonman]

The AA Captain was an A##. Pure and simple. Had there been a medical emergency or a min fuel situation that would have been a different story but this guy didn't want to take the time to go around and vector for the 31R approach. (crosswind gusts were out of limits for the a/c to land 22L). Instead, he forced another aircraft to go around which cost tthe other company $$. I'd love to read the report he had to submit to the FAA for declaring the emergency.

 

[Ducky]

The AA Captain was an A##. Pure and simple. Had there been a medical emergency or a min fuel situation that would have been a different story but this guy didn't want to take the time to go around and vector for the 31R approach. (crosswind gusts were out of limits for the a/c to land 22L). Instead, he forced another aircraft to go around which cost tthe other company $$. I'd love to read the report he had to submit to the FAA for declaring the emergency.

Who the Fu*K are you, and what the hell do you know about declaring emergencies? Please back that post up with some experience that you are basing your judgement on.

 

[wink]

The AA Captain was an A##. Pure and simple. Had there been a medical emergency or a min fuel situation that would have been a different story but this guy didn't want to take the time to go around and vector for the 31R approach. (crosswind gusts were out of limits for the a/c to land 22L). Instead, he forced another aircraft to go around which cost tthe other company $$. I'd love to read the report he had to submit to the FAA for declaring the emergency.

So you have perfect knowledge? You have heard ALL the comms between the AA aircraft and ATC? You happen to know that there were no abnormalities or operational issues with the aircraft? As Ducky said, lay it on the table.

 

[A4sForever]

Again ... going along w/ the assumption that we know 'most of the story', at least for the sake of this discussion:

From the get-go ... the CAPT signed the dispatch release ... so he should have /would have been O.K. with dispatch fuel, the forecast enroute WX, the destination airport runways, navaids, and/or alternate(s) ... or he's not doing his job. This airport involved a pre-planned runway closure and the WX and winds should have been available at destination and enroute. If he was 'uncomfortable', he could have requested/demanded more fuel at origin -- or a different runway earlier. I have ...

I just wonder if he ever stated: ''minimum fuel'' -- JFK/NYC controllers hear that quite often. ''Approaching minimum fuel'' means nothing, but it might get someone's attention. But then again, we ARE working w/ JFK so forget any priority handling unless you pull the trigger. Having said that; a ''minimum fuel'' call in an' of itself is still just an advisory that the aircraft can't accept any undue delay ... no 'undue' delay might still have been the approach to the 22's.

Personally, I don't believe I've EVER hear a driver-jock state: '' ... if you don't do this or give me that, I'll declare an emergency ... '' Bizarre .. bizarre ..

1. 6500 lbs is just above an Emergency fuel in the 767.
2. It seemed to be below his comfort level, which is reason enough to declare an emergency.
3. If this was the case, he probably should've let ATC know he was min fuel before he let himself get into a box, where the only way out was to declare an emergency and make it everyones problem.
4. As far as breaking off an approach from one runway to another in VMC conditions with TCAS, I personally don't think it's all that dangerous.
5. Is it the perfect solution to this problem- No, could he have avoided this by fessing up earlier- Yes.
6. However, it sounds like he picked the safest course of action at that point.
7. The problem was he probably shouldn't have let himself get cornered into that situation in the first place.
8. On the flip side of that coin, there are a lot of variables that drove him to that spot in the first place and I promise you he's a way more experienced than me (so this could happen to most of us).
9. Bottom line- he got his plane and pax on the ground safely. Bravo Zulu.

1. I'm no -67 expert, but it sounds about right ... so if it was an 'emergency fuel' situation, how did that happen on a 'normal' point A to B flight ... ?? It doesn't happen ''just because'' ... Without a pre-ordained 'min-fuel or emergency fuel' call to ATC, how did it develop down low/in close during the final approach phase?? Inquiring minds like to know that kine' stuff ...
2. CRM-speak aside, we don't have 'comfort levels' in airline aviation. That's for the 'touchy-feely' crowd. Aviators have FAA requirements, company procedures, flight ops SOP, and demonstrated & personal standards (da kine' standards you have when no one is looking). We train and practice for those each & every day on the line (believe it or not, someone's 'looking' at you every day) or on an all too frequent basis back at the company in a training evolution. This guy's an FAA checked & type-rated senior airline CAPT. He doesn't make it up as he goes along. The wind was either in limits or it wasn't. You either do it 'right', or you don't ... 'comfort' is what you do after the flight.
3. True that, for the sake of this discussion ...
4. You personally don't think it's dangerous?? You've evidently never flown in/out of the JFK/NYC TCA ??? Or LAX or SFO or DFW or ATL or SEA or DEN or a hundred other BUSY TCA's ... I think you get the picture. You don't 'WAG' it in a TCA unless there's an overriding concern or you know something the rest of us don't ...
5. Again, true ... quite true ...
6. At that point?? The safest?? More like the 'only' course of action at that point?? And why was he 'at that point'?? I guess that IS the 'point' of this discussion ..
7. You just answered your own question in our little game of Ready-Room Commando-ing.
8. How do we know what 'drove him to that' place in the sky ??? From the available tape ... you'd have to be clairvoyant to arrive at that conclusion ...
9. "Bottom line- he got his plane and pax on the ground safely..." Is this like the 'bottom line up front' thread ... ??? Here's the 'real bottom line': we get the pax from A to B and back onto the ground, safely and relatively happy, each & every day w/out resorting to an 'emergency' when in the short-hairs. Doing it every day hundreds & thousands of times over and over worldwide ... that's where the real 'BZ' comes in ...

IF the winds were out of a/c limits -- not 'comfort zone' limits -- he should have said so.
IF the fuel was critical -- he should have said so. And probably earlier, too ... (assuming he didn't, once again)

My 'bottom line up front' )): he seems to have been reactive on this approach rather than being anticipatory ... and that's not a good thing in aviation.

Actually ... you didn't do too bad. You tacitly said your learning/experience curve can go no where but 'up' (and by the way, that goes for ALL of us in aviation), so we'll give you ''Gentleman's C'' ... but I guess these days, it's probably inflated to a ''Gentleman's B+'', just so you'll feel 'good' about yourself ...

 

[MakeNoise]

A-4s, I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like we are saying the samething. Given the assumption he was Emergency Fuel, he should not have gotten himself into that box where his only way out was to declare an emergency. I agree on all of your points with 2 exceptions:

1. I believe we do all still have comfort levels, no matter what the SOP, MCG, FTI, FOM, Vol 1, Company policy, FAA, etc, etc says.

2. I have been based out of JFK and ATL and do have a PIC type rating on a 767. Agree doing a circle to land to the off duty runway is a bad idea in any class B airspace, and we agree he shouldn't have gotten to the point where it was his only option. However, I don't think doing so on a VMC day is going to cause the sun to stop rising, but flaming out before you get back around to the runway will (at least for everyone onboard).

Last, I'm always learning...don't want to peak too early. I'll gladly take my B+