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Platform Smack Talk Forum

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46Driver

46Driver

"It's a mother beautiful bridge, and it's gon
Because most helos are shot down in the terminal environment (i.e., taking off and landing). Althought the V-22 is fast out of the zone, it is slow into the zone (my impression.) It doesn't have door guns for suppression - and I don't consider a tail gun enough. I have doubts about its ability to perform takeoffs and landings at high density altitudes (i.e., mountain warfare). There is neither a tilt-rotor gunship nor tilt rotor heavy lift - so all you can do is get troops to a far away zone and have neither gunship support nor bring in the heavy supplies. I don't know how many you can base on a LPD which takes away from the flexibility of a split-ARG (amphibous ready group - a company of Marines and 4 to 6 helos go away on an LPD and support operations 1000 miles away from the big deck LHD.) Its not as versatile as the H-60 which can be either a gunship or assault helo.

Above all, the price tag. Its at $85 Million a copy - which is not affordable - you could buy a whole squadron of H-60's for the price of 2 MV-22's. Are the MV-22's speed and range more important than the H-60's versatility and price? Considering the missions and the engagements we will be in, I think the H-60 is better suited. I can see a niche where the MV-22 are flying for SOCOM and perhaps a small det to Marine MEU's (just like Harriers, 53's, etc) but I can't see taking over the entire medium lift assault mission.

Very thought provoking article entitled "Unrestricted Warfare" written in 1999 by 2 Chinese Colonels. Part of it can be seen here www.elastic.org/~fche/mirrors/cryptome.org/cuw.htm I am still re-reading it.

However, Phrogdriver is on the opposite side of the argument and I'm sure he will chime in with all of the reasons why to buy it. It does ease logistic requirements on AMC which is a big deal.
 
phrogdriver

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I don't want to digress into another Osprey war. There are already plenty of threads on that. But anyways...

Helicopters have been getting shot during the enroute environment as well, and the V22 is going to be a lot harder to hit with a MANPAD or RPG barrage than a helo. If you're going into a true hot zone, someone has made a bad call already. The hairy zones I've been told of in Iraq were all medevacs--can't go in guns blazing for those anyways. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a story of the door gunner saving the aircraft by capping someone in the LZ. I've heard about a lot of gunners firing, but only in the enroute phase. The V22 is going to come in with a lot less warning by virtue of speed and quietness. The test data also shows it better able to take battle damage than the 46/53, should that be necessary. Being able to go farther also opens up your choice of LZs--the whole point of manuever warfare being to hit him where he ain't.

As far as split-deck ARGs go, it has the same folded footprint as a 46, so you could put the same number aboard. The only problem would be working expanded-deck ops off the aft spots. You couldn't spot a 22 and a UH1 at the same time, as you can now. THe new LPD-17 is supposed to be designed with V22s in mind, so I would hope that aspect has been corrected.

We'll be stuck with whatever we buy noww for the next 25 years. The 60 is 20 years old already. It's going to be pretty stale at nearly 50 years old. We need to give ourselves a tactical advantage.

I visited VMX-22 a few months ago. They said things were going to be event driven, vice date driven. When the program is ready, whichever 46 squadron isn't busy is going to be the one they flip over. Hopefully that will be soon.
 
46Driver

46Driver

"It's a mother beautiful bridge, and it's gon
We are all going to have different opinions, just like some coaches run a 4-3 Defense while others prefer a 3-4 alignment. I hope it works because the Corps is going full speed ahead with the project - although I would like to see the 53D's replaced by more 53E's or the new 53X instead of as the Osprey as planned. Heavy lift is in short supply.

Heard a nasty rumor that the Phrogs were so tapped out that one of the 53D squadrons might be the first to be replaced by the V-22?
 
Q

Q-ball

Marine CH-53E Pilot
pilot
Beleive me, nothing would make me happier than flying 53E's in Hawaii, but it ain't gonna happen. The Deltas will eventually be replaced by the Osprey, which won't really take away any Heavy lift assests. You really can't put Heavy-lift and delta in the same sentence. The rumor that I has been going around is that the 53D squadrons in Hawaii are going to move out to Japan permanently. The two 46 squadrons in Japan will move to Hawaii IOT be eventually transitioned to the Osprey.
As for the 53X, it looks like about 2015 for the first ones to be hitting the street.

Q
 
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