Protect the Flag Amendment

[A4sForever]

Not too sure if this should go in "War Zone" or current news, but since it IS current news and the Flag is central in most things military .....

The U.S. House approved a constitutional amendment yesterday that would give Congress the power to ban desecration of the American Flag. Supporters said the measure reflected a deeper sense of patriotism in the country, while critics contended that members of Congress were more concerned with protecting the flag than the freedom it represents. The measure was designed to overturn a 1989 decision by the Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 that flag burning was a protected free-speech right.

Would you support a Congressional ban on the desecration of the U.S. flag? (p.s. your vote will not be public on the forum ..... )

 

[Schnugg]

Yes, I'm with the "Duke" on this.

 

[snizo]

An ammendment restricting freedom of expression is repulsive.


"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire

 

[VetteMuscle427]

An ammendment restricting freedom of expression is repulsive.


"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire

I'm with you. Let them burn the flag. To us it means something, to them it is a peice of cloth. To each their own.

 

[asise]

I've always thought that burning a flag when you are actually allowed to do so takes away from the symbolism you are trying to achieve in the first place. Making it illegal won't make it easier to watch somebody burn our flag, nor will it deter a potential flag burner (unless the penalty is truly severe) - it will simply give that person more attention - just what they wanted in the first place. I prefer to ignore those people, even though there would be some satisfaction in watching the police drag them off. For every flag you burn, I will raise two.

 

[HOORAH]

An ammendment restricting freedom of expression is repulsive.


"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire

The 1st ammendment clearly says Speech for a reason. Does your copy have the word "expression" in it? Mine doesn't. If the founding father's wanted to use the word expression, they would have, but guess what? That's right you guessed it, they didn't. They didn't write the Bill of Rights quickly or hastily. Every last word was thought about and analysed to say exactly what they wanted it to say, not imply to you what they were sort of trying to say but didn't really know how to word it so they just put down what's there to get on to the next one.

I frankly think that anyone who would burn the flag should be deported and stripped of their citizenship because you obviously don't feel greatful or privilidged to live here so go elsewhere, we don't need unAmerican citizens who hate our country. It's called respect people need to learn a bit about it first then we can talk about whether or not "expression" is covered under the constitution. (obviously that's not literal just how I feel dealings should be for people who want to desicrate our symbol of freedom. How much flack did we get for the "desicration" of the Koran that wasn't even true?)

Oh and one more thing, frankly there are more important issues the Congress and the House should be dealing with. Just get it done and move on. Either don't mess with it or do. This goes up there with the steroid use in baseball hearings under "this is all you have to talk about?"

//I know there are misspellings but I'm running on 2 hours sleep right now and just don't care.

 

[snoopusmaximus]

Man this is a toughie. 5 v. 4 on the Court, endless public and private debate, at least 2 of my 5 remaining brain cells expended on this topic.

1. For freedom of speech. Lotsa deployed time in really nasty places, ready to give it all up to protect this right for my kids, my family and fellow citizens.

2. Against ignorance and selfish people who hide behind this right and don't consider how hateful and painful their expression of this right is to their fellow citizens (Nazis in Skokie IL, Flag Burning, Prof Churchill, etc).

Not sure what the right answer is!

 

[feddoc]

I frankly think that anyone who would burn the flag should be deported and stripped of their citizenship because you obviously don't feel greatful or privilidged to live here so go elsewhere, we don't need unAmerican citizens who hate our country. It's called respect people need to learn a bit about it first then we can talk about whether or not "expression" is covered under the constitution.

My dad, a WWII vet, was outside a bus station in Albuquerque, NM (waiting to come home from the VA hospital) in the mid 60's. Some kid was wearing a flag sewn into the seat of his pants..dad asked him why. The kid replied that it was his choice to voice his 'expression' as he saw fit and that he felt that way about the way the US was headed. Dad, having two sons in Vietnam, voiced his 'expression' as he saw fit. Cops were about to arrest him for assault, but found a better prize in the young man's pants pocket...a dime bag.

It is as HOORAH stated...it is about respect. Respect for this country, and the main symbol of it...our flag. Say what you want about our president, congress, etc. But, don't F^&k with the flag.

 

[nittany03]

Absolutely not. It's disgusting, it's repulsive, but it's protected under the first amendment. My right to swing my fist stops only where someone else's nose begins. Hoorah, according to your argument, the goverment is justified in shutting down any form of communication which does not involve the spoken word or the written letter.

I further draw your attention to the rest of the First Amendment, particularly the right to peaceably assemble. Flag burning may offend you, me, and most other Americans, but it doesn't violate our individual rights.
Also, there is the Ninth Amendment. To wit:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

What makes this country great is its marketplace of ideas. Good people and crackpots have equal say because we trust the savvy of the majority of the population to make wise decisions about who has their head screwed on straight. To ban flag-burning is to ban the right of individuals or groups to communicate their ideas as they see fit. Granted, they may be crackpots. But for our democracy to function effectively, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT BIT OF INFORMATION! Just because it offends you doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal.

Our responsiblility as Americans is not to ban flag burning but to make those who do see the error of their ways. All those people are doing is showing how small they are.

"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
-G.K. Chesterton

Edit: Found a great link about the issue here.

 

[Cate]

What nittany said. Everything that nittany said. All the parts of it.

 

[squeeze]

HELL NO

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., said, "If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents."

my thoughts exactly.

 

[squeeze]

rant

Your lack of understanding of constitutional law and precedent is hilariously scary... like most other right/left wing extremists.

 

[Elder]

I love our Flag. I would die defending It.

I think people who choose to burn flags are complete morons ... it doesn't solve anything.

That said, I think they should have the right. I don't agree with their reasons It does, however, create jobs.

I personally enjoy laughing at the morons who maker their flags just so they can burn it.

They could and should, however, be charged with other crimes if done on on public/city/state/fed owned property, possibly endagering lives of others.

That's just my thoughts...

If they pass the ammendment, wouldn't upset me in the least.. I could live with it.

 

[T-man]

stumbled on this...

I stumbled on this and thought it worthy of posting on this discussion:

http://wjserra.com/flag.htm

To Those Who Want To Burn the Flag


Does the First Amendment give us the right to desecrate the American flag?

Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation, deserving protection by law?

Tough call.

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of "statement," I say let them do it. But under one condition: they MUST get permission from three sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran....Perhaps a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo meant half of everyone you knew would be dead tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map. Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War soldier who helped rescue half a nation from Communism, or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a blood dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent country.


That flag represented your mother and father, your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them permission to burn the American flag? Next, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their brothers and sisters may still languish in their native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery. Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our shores. Some have seen friends and family get tortured and murdered by their own government for daring to do things we take for granted every day. For those who risked everything simply for the chance to become an American, what kind of feelings do they have for the flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to tear up the flag.



Last, you should get the signature of a mother. Not just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave their life for America. It doesn't even have to be from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a Secret Service or DEA agent. Then again, it could be a common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you! Ask that mother to spit on her flag.


Away from family, away from the precious shores of home, in the face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of death, the American flag inspires those who believe in the American dream, the American promise, the American vision... Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this nation appreciate the American flag. So if you want to desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or before you burn it, I have a simple request.


Just ask permission. Not from the Constitution. Not from some obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits. Instead, ask those who defended our nation so that we may be free today. Ask those who struggled to reach our shores so that they may join us in the American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to this nation so that others may be free.


For we cannot ask permission from those who died wishing they could, just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the flag that stands for our nation, the United States of America ... the greatest nation on earth.

 

[A4sForever]

Freedom of expression .... freedom of speech .... marketplace of ideas .... repulsive .... disgusting .... constitutional law .... morons .... idiots .... right/left wing ..... Voltaire (French philosopher) .... G.K. Chesterton (English critic and author) .... original intent .... politicians (of any stripe getting "face time") .... Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) .... et al.

All of these things have been mentioned or alluded to (above) by people for purposes of the discussion. Sometimes I long for a return to the simpler times of my boyhood when things were not quite so complex nor esoteric --- when concepts were more easily understood and not "nuanced" and colored in so many shades of grey as to confuse the audience and sometimes even the original author.

What, pray tell, could an "expression" such as the one pictured (below) have to contribute to this discussion of flag desecration??? What do you think these fellows might have to say regarding the question at hand ???

Just wondering .....