Really stupid questions about life as a SWO and anything else not aviation related [mod dog wuz hərə]

[Max the Mad Russian]

and post-CVN command

Oh BTW, is the nuke training of the NA/NFOs selected for CVN command detailed enough to the extent when such student may be appointed nuke EOOW on a live carrier? From my armchair expertise it seems that among this trident the CVN CO/XO are not so deep in the pure nuke/propulsion affairs if compared to Sub drivers and SWO(N)s

generations prior to the Steregushchy.

Kirov-class CGBNs were in leading position then though for really enormous, crazy money... In real aspect proportion (currency unit FY average rate per crude oil barrel prime cost in same currency) and for purchase+owning pattern, each of them was about 20% more expensive than contemporary carriers of Nimitz class (minus airwing)...

 

[azguy]

Kirov-class CGBNs were in leading position then though for really enormous, crazy money... In real aspect proportion (currency unit FY average rate per crude oil barrel prime cost in same currency) and for purchase+owning pattern, each of them was about 20% more expensive than contemporary carriers of Nimitz class (minus airwing)...

That's crazy. You make my point in this post. One cruiser costing more than an aircraft carrier?!?! A Kirov in "leading position" ... you are so brainwashed.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

One cruiser costing more than an aircraft carrier?!?!

Yes. That's why there were only four of them and "gas-powered" Slava-class, as supplementary measure. We just like French faced with big problems creating press water-water ship reactors more powerful than average ones for the subs. i.e. higher than 180 MWe. To a degree this situation lasts till today.

 

[Jae.brown]

Hey everyone,

I noticed the last post on this thread was quite a while ago so I hope its not too long but I didn't see any relevant threads when I searched on the site earlier. I also wanted to avoid creating a whole new post just for a stupid question. I've just completed my OAR (54) and I graduate with my degree in July so I'm taking this time to learn about each community I'm interested in. My first choice is SWO. I talked to a Naval Academy grad family friend who is a SWO and one of the things he talked about was the lack of sleep while on deployment. He said that on average SWO JOs get somewhere between 4-5 hours of sleep a night, but its not unusual for SWOs to finish an early watch like 12-5 or something, then return straight to work for the following day.

To my knowledge I don't have any major issues performing while sleep deprived, I've done it all throughout college while working 30+ hours a week part time in addition to class work. However, I happen to be a deep sleeper. There are some days where I've been really tired and had to wake up early for work, but my body just said "nope, you're getting 8 hours of sleep today." I'm not new to waking up early, I woke up at 4am all throughout my sophomore and junior year of college to open the campus gym as the opening supervisor, but there were one or two days where I just didn't hear my alarm clock and slept through it all. Obviously I wouldn't want to be late habitually, but is it common for people to be late to watch/work? I know there is a higher expectation for officers, but would there be someone to come wake you up if you are late? The SWO I talked to said that the "suck it up" mentality is ingrained in the older officers; almost like the culture of medical residency. My SWO recruiter told me that the culture is in the process of changing and that the Navy is understanding that having irregular schedules and messed up circadian rhythms is not conducive to effective leadership.

I'd like to say I would be able to respond to a fire alarm or general quarters alarm while on board, but I don't know for sure. I have a serious drive to become a SWO, but this is a serious concern of mine that I need answered. If it seems that I wouldn't be able to handle the sleep deprivation, I would not willingly endanger the lives of the men and women on the ships if I happen to slept through work and alarms. I assume that most SWOs are people just like me who need sleep and not robots who can function off 2 hours of sleep for weeks, so I'm hoping for feedback from others. I've been told that your body learns to adjust. I'm just worried about what happens if I can't.

 

[Larick]

So there’s gonna be times where some sailors are gonna be late for watch, it happens. Someone will be sent over to where ever you’re sleeping, state room or over flow berthing/JO Jungle, to wake you up and remind you that you’re late for watch. Don’t make this a habit.

So just set multiple alarms on your phone and watch taking into account time zone shifts, if applicable. Over time, your body will naturallly get used to your sleep schedule and you’ll be surprised when you’ll wake up a few minutes before your alarm goes off. It’s just all about consistency. Trust me, you’ll wake up whenever an emergency alarm is called away. You’ll hear the alarm or hear the people around you jumping out of their rack along with hearing some WTFs here and there.

You’ll typically have the same watch rotation during an underway, depending on your ships rotation for a particular watch, and then it’ll shift either forward or back a watch once you get pierside.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

He said that on average SWO JOs get somewhere between 4-5 hours of sleep a night, but its not unusual for SWOs to finish an early watch like 12-5 or something, then return straight to work for the following day.

but is it common for people to be late to watch/work? I know there is a higher expectation for officers, but would there be someone to come wake you up if you are late? The SWO I talked to said that the "suck it up" mentality is ingrained in the older officers; almost like the culture of medical residency. My SWO recruiter told me that the culture is in the process of changing and that the Navy is understanding that having irregular schedules and messed up circadian rhythms is not conducive to effective leadership.

Pretty much anyone dealing with engineering systems deals with this, we considered 6 hours a luxury, when I was a first class there was a few months where I didn't get more than 3 hours at a shot due to issues with the propulsion plant, and that meant that my CPO and DIVO were the same as I had to let them know what was going on.

It is not common to be late to watch, it was very rare for anyone be late, didn't matter if it was an officer or an E-1, it was rare and the ones that were chronically late were often the ones that had other issues. The thing is watches have to be stood, maybe you are on a ship with a decent number of officers standing watch on your watchstation, or maybe you are shorthanded and doing 5 hours on 10 off and still taking care of your normal admin duties, for a while my DIVO and I stood watch together on some days we had watch from 7-12 then working until dinner at 17, take a few hours off and then back on watch for the 22-03, sleep from 03-07, quick breakfast and work from basically 07-12, watch from 12-17, then dinner and check the office but basically off until 03-07 watch, then work from 07-17, watch from 17-22, then finally a full night sleep until watch from 07-12, repeat for weeks on end.

 

[Jae.brown]

Pretty much anyone dealing with engineering systems deals with this, we considered 6 hours a luxury, when I was a first class there was a few months where I didn't get more than 3 hours at a shot due to issues with the propulsion plant, and that meant that my CPO and DIVO were the same as I had to let them know what was going on.

It is not common to be late to watch, it was very rare for anyone be late, didn't matter if it was an officer or an E-1, it was rare and the ones that were chronically late were often the ones that had other issues. The thing is watches have to be stood, maybe you are on a ship with a decent number of officers standing watch on your watchstation, or maybe you are shorthanded and doing 5 hours on 10 off and still taking care of your normal admin duties, for a while my DIVO and I stood watch together on some days we had watch from 7-12 then working until dinner at 17, take a few hours off and then back on watch for the 22-03, sleep from 03-07, quick breakfast and work from basically 07-12, watch from 12-17, then dinner and check the office but basically off until 03-07 watch, then work from 07-17, watch from 17-22, then finally a full night sleep until watch from 07-12, repeat for weeks on end.

So your body eventually adjusted to this system? I'm reassured a bit because it seems like people end up getting a few hours of sleep in between watch and regular work? I don't expect to get something crazy like 8 consecutive hours, but the way it sounded to me was that sometimes DIVOs can end up working 17+ hours straight without breaks or rest. Granted the SWO I talked to was engineering and as you mentioned, any issues with the propulsion plant meant he had to get up to address it.

 

[Jae.brown]

So there’s gonna be times where some sailors are gonna be late for watch, it happens. Someone will be sent over to where ever you’re sleeping, state room or over flow berthing/JO Jungle, to wake you up and remind you that you’re late for watch. Don’t make this a habit.

So just set multiple alarms on your phone and watch taking into account time zone shifts, if applicable. Over time, your body will naturallly get used to your sleep schedule and you’ll be surprised when you’ll wake up a few minutes before your alarm goes off. It’s just all about consistency. Trust me, you’ll wake up whenever an emergency alarm is called away. You’ll hear the alarm or hear the people around you jumping out of their rack along with hearing some WTFs here and there.

You’ll typically have the same watch rotation during an underway, depending on your ships rotation for a particular watch, and then it’ll shift either forward or back a watch once you get pierside.

I appreciate your response. It seems like if/when I go to OCS it'll be a good judge for how well I function on low sleep. I've definitely adapted to waking up early for class and work before without much problems, but I'm just being honest with myself and I know I seldom wake up late on occasion. Could you possibly describe a possible schedule, like I don't understand what the regular working hours and watch hours would be? What would an average week possibly look like? Work 7 days a week from 6-5 (again just guessing), and a couple days a week stand watch an additional 5 hours or so?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

So your body eventually adjusted to this system? I'm reassured a bit because it seems like people end up getting a few hours of sleep in between watch and regular work? I don't expect to get something crazy like 8 consecutive hours, but the way it sounded to me was that sometimes DIVOs can end up working 17+ hours straight without breaks or rest. Granted the SWO I talked to was engineering and as you mentioned, any issues with the propulsion plant meant he had to get up to address it.

Adjust, well in a way, I still don't sleep normally most nights.

It isn't uncommon to work 17 or more hours straight without sleep, what I talked about doesn't include GQ's, training, but when you are busy you forget about sleep.

 

[HSMPBR]

So your body eventually adjusted to this system? I'm reassured a bit because it seems like people end up getting a few hours of sleep in between watch and regular work? I don't expect to get something crazy like 8 consecutive hours, but the way it sounded to me was that sometimes DIVOs can end up working 17+ hours straight without breaks or rest.

What’s crazy is calling 8 consecutive hours crazy.

 

[IKE]

The surface community officially knows sleep is important to health and performance, but from my short time on a DDG three years ago, it seems they still have problems respecting it.

There has been a lot of sleep research, and there is a new-ish watch rotation of 3-on-9-off designed to help people maintain circadian rhythms and have a chance to get in a straight 8 of sleep. (The old standard was 5 on 10 off, and the schedule rotated every day.)

I've heard a few SWOs complain about the new plan, but the research shows it results in more sleep and much more alertness during watch. As a slave to the flight schedule, I would love the day-to-day predictability. Even we sleep-worshipping aviators have sleep issues underway. As a helo driver on the CVN, it's not uncommon to come back from a night flight and be told as your logging to go to sleep because you've got the early morning FCF. Our processes officially respect an 8-hour rest period, but we don't give a damn about circadian rhythm.

 

[AllYourBass]

I'd rather be a deep sleeper than a light sleeper on a Navy vessel (I am the latter). Most of my underway flight time was in the middle of the night (DDG/CG), so bedtime was always around the time the ensign on watch played the blaring morning wakeup song over the 1MC/flight deck gun shoots/CIWS testing/every bell and whistle in the history of bells and whistles/etc.

I haven't even had the pleasure of sleeping under a catapult yet :')

 

[exNavyOffRec]

The surface community officially knows sleep is important to health and performance, but from my short time on a DDG three years ago, it seems they still have problems respecting it.

There has been a lot of sleep research, and there is a new-ish watch rotation of 3-on-9-off designed to help people maintain circadian rhythms and have a chance to get in a straight 8 of sleep. (The old standard was 5 on 10 off, and the schedule rotated every day.)

I've heard a few SWOs complain about the new plan, but the research shows it results in more sleep and much more alertness during watch. As a slave to the flight schedule, I would love the day-to-day predictability. Even we sleep-worshipping aviators have sleep issues underway. As a helo driver on the CVN, it's not uncommon to come back from a night flight and be told as your logging to go to sleep because you've got the early morning FCF. Our processes officially respect an 8-hour rest period, but we don't give a damn about circadian rhythm.

3 x 9 would be nice if you have the manpower to man 4 section, when we could we would go 5 x 15, even now it is hard for engineering to man 4 section, too many people keep leaving. It is a double edge sword, to help keep sailors need a better rotation but you can't get a better rotation unless those sailors stay.

 

[AllAmerican75]

Hey everyone,

I noticed the last post on this thread was quite a while ago so I hope its not too long but I didn't see any relevant threads when I searched on the site earlier. I also wanted to avoid creating a whole new post just for a stupid question. I've just completed my OAR (54) and I graduate with my degree in July so I'm taking this time to learn about each community I'm interested in. My first choice is SWO. I talked to a Naval Academy grad family friend who is a SWO and one of the things he talked about was the lack of sleep while on deployment. He said that on average SWO JOs get somewhere between 4-5 hours of sleep a night, but its not unusual for SWOs to finish an early watch like 12-5 or something, then return straight to work for the following day.

To my knowledge I don't have any major issues performing while sleep deprived, I've done it all throughout college while working 30+ hours a week part time in addition to class work. However, I happen to be a deep sleeper. There are some days where I've been really tired and had to wake up early for work, but my body just said "nope, you're getting 8 hours of sleep today." I'm not new to waking up early, I woke up at 4am all throughout my sophomore and junior year of college to open the campus gym as the opening supervisor, but there were one or two days where I just didn't hear my alarm clock and slept through it all. Obviously I wouldn't want to be late habitually, but is it common for people to be late to watch/work? I know there is a higher expectation for officers, but would there be someone to come wake you up if you are late? The SWO I talked to said that the "suck it up" mentality is ingrained in the older officers; almost like the culture of medical residency. My SWO recruiter told me that the culture is in the process of changing and that the Navy is understanding that having irregular schedules and messed up circadian rhythms is not conducive to effective leadership.

I'd like to say I would be able to respond to a fire alarm or general quarters alarm while on board, but I don't know for sure. I have a serious drive to become a SWO, but this is a serious concern of mine that I need answered. If it seems that I wouldn't be able to handle the sleep deprivation, I would not willingly endanger the lives of the men and women on the ships if I happen to slept through work and alarms. I assume that most SWOs are people just like me who need sleep and not robots who can function off 2 hours of sleep for weeks, so I'm hoping for feedback from others. I've been told that your body learns to adjust. I'm just worried about what happens if I can't.

Yes, sleep is at a premium at sea, but you'll adjust. I don't think you'll ever get used to it, at least I never did. You end up just getting used to constantly being tired. There were some days I would come back from sea and literally fall asleep on the floor. You will be exhausted and you will miss your alarms and you will sleep through things. It happens, but don't make it a habit. Hell, I slept through an entire early morning drill set one time and nobody even noticed. Still not sure how I got out of that one scot free.

You will be happy you are a deep sleeper. There is a LOT of noise on a ship and you will need to adjust quickly if you have any hope of getting sleep. Eventually, you will be able to respond to changes in that noise to respond to emergencies. I have woken up many times because the sound of the ventilation system or the hum of the engines changed and I just knew I had to head back to main control to figure out what was going on.

Don't worry about it, you'll likely be fine. In fact, you will likely have the opposite problem where your circadian rhythm and sleep system is so jacked up that you will regularly have bouts of insomnia and will sleep on an irregular schedule. This is probably far more destructive.

The surface community officially knows sleep is important to health and performance, but from my short time on a DDG three years ago, it seems they still have problems respecting it.

There has been a lot of sleep research, and there is a new-ish watch rotation of 3-on-9-off designed to help people maintain circadian rhythms and have a chance to get in a straight 8 of sleep. (The old standard was 5 on 10 off, and the schedule rotated every day.)

I've heard a few SWOs complain about the new plan, but the research shows it results in more sleep and much more alertness during watch. As a slave to the flight schedule, I would love the day-to-day predictability. Even we sleep-worshipping aviators have sleep issues underway. As a helo driver on the CVN, it's not uncommon to come back from a night flight and be told as your logging to go to sleep because you've got the early morning FCF. Our processes officially respect an 8-hour rest period, but we don't give a damn about circadian rhythm.

The surface force has been very slow to change. Three years ago we still had COs and XOs who refused to follow the guidance set down after the Fitz and John McCain collisions because "that would never happen to us" or "they were obviously deficient elsewhere and that's why they crashed" or "we're here to work not lay in our racks." Even now you encounter the old guard who insist that being miserable on sea duty is the only way to properly run a ship. Thankfully, many are being won over to the new way of doing things, albeit very slowly.

 

[Aluroon]

AllAmerican's answer above is really good, as are a lot of others on this thread. Chiming in (relatively) fresh off deployment here. Keep in mind all of my experience is CRU/DES. I don't know what the gators do other than show up for photo exercises on occasion.

Generally speaking sleep is at a premium, but there is a great degree of inequality in its distribution. Engineers tend to get the least, then Combat Systems, Operations, and Weapons in that order - at least among first/second tour DIVOs. Generally speaking the more successful you are, the less sleep you'll get as you're trusted with more on more responsibilities. At some point you get used to making due with less - though how much less varies person by person. There are guys I sailed with that could make due for long periods on 3-4 hours, with a cat nap here or there. Generally speaking I found if I consistently got less than five I was a real jerk to be around.

Sleep can also be a feast/famine thing. My first month onboard, during my second tour, we experienced one major casualty in a system I owned after another, seemingly every three or four hours. I almost never got more than four hours of sleep a night. That entire patrol three month patrol was an absolute shit show and by the end I was worn absolutely ragged between requalifying OOD, qualifying a combat watch, learning my divisional stuff, and getting up to speed on theater publications.

The following patrol just a month later was the easiest three months of my career, in which I was only woken at night with casualties handful of times and we were on four section watch (six on, 18 off). I even had time to catch up on some personal reading.

The deployment after that I qualified another watch station, we were short some people, and I spent the entire nine months either standing the 2-7/15-18 or six on six off. I typically got about five hours between 1900-0100 and snagged an hour or two in the morning after Khaki call whenever I got a chance before the morning /afternoon meeting rotation started. When I was dead tired (six/six, if we had evening events or casualties) I'd pretty frequently meals.

People show up late - it happens. You'll get woken up. If it's a one off people tend to be pretty chill. If it's a pattern... they'll find ways to correct it. Set multiple alarms if you have to. Don't make it a pattern. In time though, as others said, you'll get accustomed to the noises of the ship. When I was on the DDG in overflow the engineering divos could sleep through Neanderthal divos shuffling around in the narrow passage and slamming their racks, but would wake up anytime we had an engine casualty before it could be called away. On the cruiser despite the ungodly racket of flight quarters I was never woken up by it (or the 1MC) except when it passed words meaningful to me or the phone rang (and both of these woke me like the dead).

Pretty amazing what you could adapt to.

Protection of sleep is getting marginally better over time - the O5 commands are better at this than the O6. There's still an expectation that you soldier on through rough days, but generally speaking on the destroyer I never got intentionally set up by the rotation to get screwed. With the O6s... old habits die hard.