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Really stupid questions about life as a SWO and anything else not aviation related [mod dog wuz hərə]
- Thread starter Wiley
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mcorrigan1@neo.
Member
Being a SWO
I see a lot of these posts about being a Naval Aviator vs. being a SWO and wanted to add some comments that might be helpful. I was a SWO who served in Desert Shield/Storm so I am probably unique in that most people who are serving in the Navy today or who have served haven't actually done what the Navy is designed to do. I mention this because it is hard to get the real "gouge" unless you talk to somebody who has accurate information and a proper perspective. I reccomend reading a book called "Becoming a Naval Officer" available from Amazon.com.
First of all, I was a reluctant SWO because I had joined the Navy because I wanted to fly but didn't get in flight school and had kind of changed my mind about that before I graduated from NROTC. The committment for being an aviator had climbed to about ten years by then. I had other goals beyond the Navy and this complicated that. I would reccomend thinking hard about that before joining the Navy. The Navy really wants people who are career oriented and are in it for the long haul. However, the Navy still needs a certain amount of people to fill its billets at all levels so even if you choose to not to make it a career, I don't think that joining with the intention to only serve your intial obligation is a bad thing. I also got out after four years knowing that even if I did stay in that I probably wasn't flag material so there was no point in it for me to stay in. I have plenty of friends who stayed in for 20+ years who retired at the rank of Commander (O-5) because they didn't select for command. There are differing opinions on this in the Navy and there is politics involved, but in my opinion you have a better chance of getting the major command experience you need to select for flag rank if you are a successful SWO than an aviator. This is purely a numbers thing because there are more aviators than command spots in the aviation Navy. In contrast, because of larger numbers of command spots in the SWO Navy and lower retention rates among SWOS, there is more opportunity to command as a SWO. Keep in mind that a lot of SWO CO's get fired for lack of confidence in their ability to command.
Most people I graduated from NROTC with wanted to fly and being a SWO was regarded as being a second class citizen. This is all wrong. I was actually happier in the long run being a SWO because the leadership experience you get is far greater than being an aviator Aviators don't get a major leadership experience until about the ten year mark in their career. Hence, many senior officers refer to them as the "kids".
As a SWO, you are given great responsibility from the start that you will carry for the rest of your life. As far as SWO's "eating their young", there is some truth to that but let me give you a little advice based on my experience. Most of that sentiment comes from people who really weren't into it very much from the start. If you work on qualifying as a SWO, do your job, and try to keep others from contaminating your attitude, you can't help but excel because that is more than a lot of SWO designees do in their initial division officer tour. I've seen officers who didn't qualify and had to get out, officers who didn't like to suck up and reluctantly qualified but were good officers otherwise, and butt kissers of the worst kind who stayed in or played the game to the hilt until the day they got out. I didn't like that game very much and I made it clear that I had other goals (I don't reccomend that). I qualified late in my intial DIV-O tour because my first CO didn't qualify anyone (he was academy and didn't trust anyone who wasn't academy) and my department head was an idiot who backstabbed his DIV-O's. That is where the sentiment "eating their young" comes from. Fortunately, my last CO and XO were better leaders who recognized that it was their job to motivate their people and took the time to mentor us. My last XO (who was academy - strange) even cared enough to ask us why a lot of the junior officers weren't too motivated to work on qualifying. I was the only one with enough guts to tell him. That department head got fired and the CO and XO qualified everyone after that. Needless to say, my first CO didn't make flag rank because he wasn't a good leader. I probably should have stayed in after that because I had gained the respect of many senior officers and had major combat experience (serving 270 days in the Persian Gulf and preparing for the amphibious landing in Kuwait). However, I had achieved what I had set out to do in the first place (serving my country, paying for school, getting experience out of college) so I was ready to move on and go to graduate school. The Navy probably would have paid for that except that you have to do another 18 month DIV-O tour and I think your Deparment Head tour before the Navy will let you go back to school. I didn't want to wait that long.
My best advice to someone who wants to join the Navy and can't decide whether to be a SWO or an aviator is this. If you want to be an aviator, you must be athletic and be prepared to commit yourself to 10+ years in the Navy. You have to also be prepared to serve as a SWO for the remainder of your four years if you don't complete flight school. I've known many SWO's who were like me and didn't get into flight school, quit flight school because they didn't like it, or washed out. My cousin had top grades from Notre Dame and didn't get in because he was allergic to bee stings. If you want to serve for only a short period, then being a SWO is a better choice. You will get to go to more places, get more experience relevant to the civilian job market, and not incur a lengthy service obligation. I think civilian career opportunities for pilots is more limited, especially with airlines not doing well, and pilot slots being scarce. It might be even worse for ex-NFO's.
As a SWO, be prepared to spend days and months standing Officer of the Deck watches underway. In a typical day at sea, you typically stand two four hour watches which are rotated through a three or four day cycle. Thus, you can expect to get a full nights sleep every third or fourth night. You typically will work 15+ hours a day underway. In port, you will stand duty as CDO usually every third or fourth day in addition to working in accordance with the normal ship's schedule. The family separation being a SWO is a killer. As a DIV-O in your initial DIV-O and follow on DIV-O tour, this is a marriage killer. It gets better as you become a more senior officer. The amount of time you spend at sea will depend on the deployment schedule of the ship you are assigned to. The deployment schedule will depend on the Navy's committments overseas and the current national security situation. In a four year period, expect at least two overseas deployments lasting a minimum of six months and one major maintenance availibility in your home port. I would estimate that I spent 30 months at sea out of the forty-eight months I spend on active duty.
I see a lot of these posts about being a Naval Aviator vs. being a SWO and wanted to add some comments that might be helpful. I was a SWO who served in Desert Shield/Storm so I am probably unique in that most people who are serving in the Navy today or who have served haven't actually done what the Navy is designed to do. I mention this because it is hard to get the real "gouge" unless you talk to somebody who has accurate information and a proper perspective. I reccomend reading a book called "Becoming a Naval Officer" available from Amazon.com.
First of all, I was a reluctant SWO because I had joined the Navy because I wanted to fly but didn't get in flight school and had kind of changed my mind about that before I graduated from NROTC. The committment for being an aviator had climbed to about ten years by then. I had other goals beyond the Navy and this complicated that. I would reccomend thinking hard about that before joining the Navy. The Navy really wants people who are career oriented and are in it for the long haul. However, the Navy still needs a certain amount of people to fill its billets at all levels so even if you choose to not to make it a career, I don't think that joining with the intention to only serve your intial obligation is a bad thing. I also got out after four years knowing that even if I did stay in that I probably wasn't flag material so there was no point in it for me to stay in. I have plenty of friends who stayed in for 20+ years who retired at the rank of Commander (O-5) because they didn't select for command. There are differing opinions on this in the Navy and there is politics involved, but in my opinion you have a better chance of getting the major command experience you need to select for flag rank if you are a successful SWO than an aviator. This is purely a numbers thing because there are more aviators than command spots in the aviation Navy. In contrast, because of larger numbers of command spots in the SWO Navy and lower retention rates among SWOS, there is more opportunity to command as a SWO. Keep in mind that a lot of SWO CO's get fired for lack of confidence in their ability to command.
Most people I graduated from NROTC with wanted to fly and being a SWO was regarded as being a second class citizen. This is all wrong. I was actually happier in the long run being a SWO because the leadership experience you get is far greater than being an aviator Aviators don't get a major leadership experience until about the ten year mark in their career. Hence, many senior officers refer to them as the "kids".
As a SWO, you are given great responsibility from the start that you will carry for the rest of your life. As far as SWO's "eating their young", there is some truth to that but let me give you a little advice based on my experience. Most of that sentiment comes from people who really weren't into it very much from the start. If you work on qualifying as a SWO, do your job, and try to keep others from contaminating your attitude, you can't help but excel because that is more than a lot of SWO designees do in their initial division officer tour. I've seen officers who didn't qualify and had to get out, officers who didn't like to suck up and reluctantly qualified but were good officers otherwise, and butt kissers of the worst kind who stayed in or played the game to the hilt until the day they got out. I didn't like that game very much and I made it clear that I had other goals (I don't reccomend that). I qualified late in my intial DIV-O tour because my first CO didn't qualify anyone (he was academy and didn't trust anyone who wasn't academy) and my department head was an idiot who backstabbed his DIV-O's. That is where the sentiment "eating their young" comes from. Fortunately, my last CO and XO were better leaders who recognized that it was their job to motivate their people and took the time to mentor us. My last XO (who was academy - strange) even cared enough to ask us why a lot of the junior officers weren't too motivated to work on qualifying. I was the only one with enough guts to tell him. That department head got fired and the CO and XO qualified everyone after that. Needless to say, my first CO didn't make flag rank because he wasn't a good leader. I probably should have stayed in after that because I had gained the respect of many senior officers and had major combat experience (serving 270 days in the Persian Gulf and preparing for the amphibious landing in Kuwait). However, I had achieved what I had set out to do in the first place (serving my country, paying for school, getting experience out of college) so I was ready to move on and go to graduate school. The Navy probably would have paid for that except that you have to do another 18 month DIV-O tour and I think your Deparment Head tour before the Navy will let you go back to school. I didn't want to wait that long.
My best advice to someone who wants to join the Navy and can't decide whether to be a SWO or an aviator is this. If you want to be an aviator, you must be athletic and be prepared to commit yourself to 10+ years in the Navy. You have to also be prepared to serve as a SWO for the remainder of your four years if you don't complete flight school. I've known many SWO's who were like me and didn't get into flight school, quit flight school because they didn't like it, or washed out. My cousin had top grades from Notre Dame and didn't get in because he was allergic to bee stings. If you want to serve for only a short period, then being a SWO is a better choice. You will get to go to more places, get more experience relevant to the civilian job market, and not incur a lengthy service obligation. I think civilian career opportunities for pilots is more limited, especially with airlines not doing well, and pilot slots being scarce. It might be even worse for ex-NFO's.
As a SWO, be prepared to spend days and months standing Officer of the Deck watches underway. In a typical day at sea, you typically stand two four hour watches which are rotated through a three or four day cycle. Thus, you can expect to get a full nights sleep every third or fourth night. You typically will work 15+ hours a day underway. In port, you will stand duty as CDO usually every third or fourth day in addition to working in accordance with the normal ship's schedule. The family separation being a SWO is a killer. As a DIV-O in your initial DIV-O and follow on DIV-O tour, this is a marriage killer. It gets better as you become a more senior officer. The amount of time you spend at sea will depend on the deployment schedule of the ship you are assigned to. The deployment schedule will depend on the Navy's committments overseas and the current national security situation. In a four year period, expect at least two overseas deployments lasting a minimum of six months and one major maintenance availibility in your home port. I would estimate that I spent 30 months at sea out of the forty-eight months I spend on active duty.
I'm glad the experience worked out for you, but the above statement is simply not true. More SWOs may get the leadership experience sooner, but there are still plenty of aviator JOs who get thrown into "major" (whatever that means) leadership experiences in their first tour.
It is also what you make of it.
Just because they throw you an opportunity to lead doesn't mean you can't piss it away.
Geez, where do I begin.
Maybe 20% of what you said is correct.
I am sorry if this comes off as a rant on SWO's. It is not, they are essential to making the Navy work. But life as an aviator does not turn your hair grey as fast! Aviators tell harrowing stories by shooting their watches down, SWO's tell harrowing stories of UNREPS with ketchup bottles....you be the judge.
Maybe 20% of what you said is correct.
No, it's pretty spot on
That is not necessarily true, I dare say leading a line division AND flying is more of a leadership challenge than leading the deck division on a frigate AND leading the deck the division on a frigate.
My advice is to not join unless youknow what you want to do....if you are going to blindly join, join to fly, you will thank me after reading further. Being athletic is not required, being physically fit is.
Get to go more places? Just so you can stand watch in port like you say below? I would much rather get some sleep and liberty. You are totally wrong about pilots/NFO's not having the civilian career opportunities as compared to SWO's. We are taught to think faster, communicate effectively, and to lead. I would love to see the average IQ of SWO's compared the the average IQ of aviators (Marines, stay out of this one).
Keep drinking that KoolAid, I want none of that. As an aviator you will stand duty as SDO one every 1-3 weeks depending on how many JO's are in your squadron and other variables. In port, you will stand a day of watch and rage the other days!
I am sorry if this comes off as a rant on SWO's. It is not, they are essential to making the Navy work. But life as an aviator does not turn your hair grey as fast! Aviators tell harrowing stories by shooting their watches down, SWO's tell harrowing stories of UNREPS with ketchup bottles....you be the judge.
mcorrigan1@neo.
Member
I agree with MIDNAdmiral. I am a former SWO and have technical degree. Although officers with engineering degrees may seem to overanalyze things at first, we have skills that are critical to the Navy and society. Thus, it's in the best interests of the Navy to encourage as many people as possible to get a technical degree. When you have an engineering graduate who actually can learn to be a leader, such as through the Navy's program, you have a person who can virtually take over any organization. I know this from experience because everything I've done since the Navy (including law school) has been really easy. Imagine the impact on society of all these highly trained engineers coming out the Navy with leadership skills? That would stimulate the economy.
One observation I have based on my experience is that after an engineer gets some experience, our logic blows everybody out of the water. After a little Ensign acne, I thought being a SWO got really easy (so much for eating their young - this is a myth created by incompetent JO's). Most of the other JO's with engineering degrees felt the same way I did and kind of thought most of the other non-technical major officers were kind of stupid. I saw the history, poly sci, business majors struggling with stuff that a first year engineering student would laugh at. There is definitely a significant advantage having a technical degree than not.
One observation I have based on my experience is that after an engineer gets some experience, our logic blows everybody out of the water. After a little Ensign acne, I thought being a SWO got really easy (so much for eating their young - this is a myth created by incompetent JO's). Most of the other JO's with engineering degrees felt the same way I did and kind of thought most of the other non-technical major officers were kind of stupid. I saw the history, poly sci, business majors struggling with stuff that a first year engineering student would laugh at. There is definitely a significant advantage having a technical degree than not.
mcorrigan1@neo. said:
Are you fucking joking or actually believe the garbage you just spewed?? I'll tell ya, I've seen jackass's of all types in the Navy...and out. Not one factor was key. Of course I have no idea what goes on in the SWO world and could really give a shit but in the aviation world, engineering/science degrees have meant jack shit in terms of performance or leadership. Want to be an engineer, scientist or just like that type of challenge? By all means, get a technical degree. For aviation, unless you want to go to TPS or maybe have a slight advantage in understanding systems, it doesn't do jack shit for ya. I've known and know a few very successful folks and not one has a technical degree. What does that mean? Nothing except maybe the fact that degrees don't determine how successful a person can be.
mcorrigan1@neo. said:
As a student ECONOMIST, I can say, that actually, it wouldn't. Perhaps the quality of the engineering workforce, but the economy as a whole? I think you're being a little far-reaching there.
I'd argue that Augusts Buell's description of a Naval Officer still stands true today - he goes on to say "...He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners..."
While technical competency is great, I think the Navy specifically has a mix of officers from commissioning sources and degrees. Personally, I like how I have a good mix of highly technical courses and Economics courses, humanities courses, as well as practical professional courses. Do I know for sure this is the best way to become an officer? No, but the Navy has allowed me to pursue it, so there must be some sort of reason they've allowed me to choose this type of education.
mcorrigan1@neo. said:
Because all liberal arts majors are F***ing retarded, clearly.
mcorrigan1@neo. said:
Ya, pretty sure your degree will have no bearing on how well you will do in flight school, with the exception of flight majors. Engineering majors can fvck it away just as easily as us lib arts majors. We have this thing called "flight school" to bring everyone, regardless of degree/background, to the same level.
Dark Horizon
New Member
Is it true that you have to take the top choice you are accepted for? I listed SWO and my second and NFO as my third (for reasons that I'm still trying to figure out) Got accepted for both, was told I had to accept the offer from SWO. But the more I reading, the more it appears that NFO may have been more along the lines of what I was looking for. I definately pysched either way, just hadn't relized (again not sure why) the amount of time SWO were on ship duty.
Thanks
Thanks
ASHWND
(BDCP) Supply Corps OC
My OR said that once you find out, and you are selected for more than one community, you get to pick the community that you would like. I looked at is as more of a top three choices, and NOT in that order... I think you will be fine if you make sure it is NFO before you sign the final select. Good luck.
Oh and thank you all of you Aviators, I think that you have talked me into going SWO. I was selected SWO and Supply (potentially, will find out in a few months, should be a sure thing) BDCP and I was having a problem choosing. Now I think that I know what I want to do, so thank you everyone.
Really?!
utak
Registered User
We made you so anal that you can crack walnuts with your buttcheeks? Wow.