REQUEST: Good aviation/military books

[BusyBee604]

What an incredible life Dieter Dengler lived in his too-short lifetime!

Haven't read Hero Found yet, but I knew Dieter slightly, as I was in his Airwing (CVW-14 on RANGER), on the '66 deployment. I joined VA-146 just prior to departure from CONUS, only 2 months prior to Dieter's (VA-145 A-1s) downing on our first day of combat ops over North Vietnam. And what a start it was...by days end - Dieter was down, VA-55 had an A-4E downed (Pilot recovered), & my Sqdn CO'S A-4C shot down (& KIA). Needless to say, an auspicious start.

So when he went down, I had known him only a couple of months. I can only say that he was a pleasant fellow, somewhat different (distant?), a "boomer" on liberty, w/ a distinct German accent. Another strange thing was that he was known to wear a set of civvies under his flight suit on combat missions, something I had never heard of before /or since. Afterward in retrospect, it seemed almost like he had a premonition of his eventual fate! I never saw him again, but heard that he had owned & ran a restaurant on Mt. Tamalpias in the SF Bay area, prior to his passing.

I have ordered the book, and look forward to learning more about the heroic actions of my late Shipmate.
BzB

 

[sbeaTm08]

Just finished Lions of Iwo Jima which is about CT 28 and what they experienced on Iwo and the training they did leading up to it. Also Last Stand of Fox Company is another good one. The CMC's reading list is a surprisingly good book resource...imagine that.

 

[Fog]

Haven't read Hero Found yet, but I knew Dieter slightly, as I was in his Airwing (CVW-14 on RANGER), on the '66 deployment. I joined VA-146 just prior to departure from CONUS, only 2 months prior to Dieter's (VA-145 A-1s) downing on our first day of combat ops over North Vietnam. And what a start it was...by days end - Dieter was down, VA-55 had an A-4E downed (Pilot recovered), & my Sqdn CO'S A-4C shot down (& KIA). Needless to say, an auspicious start.

So when he went down, I had known him only a couple of months. I can only say that he was a pleasant fellow, somewhat different (distant?), a "boomer" on liberty, w/ a distinct German accent. Another strange thing was that he was known to wear a set of civvies under his flight suit on combat missions, something I had never heard of before /or since. Afterward in retrospect, it seemed almost like he had a premonition of his eventual fate! I never saw him again, but heard that he had owned & ran a restaurant on Mt. Tamalpias in the SF Bay area, prior to his passing.

I have ordered the book, and look forward to learning more about the heroic actions of my late Shipmate.
BzB

You'll love the book and you're spot on: he wore civvies under his flight suit because he had a premonition of getting shot down and hoped to pass himself off as a german turista (no shit) if captured. Obviously, it didn't work, but it's a fascinating read, IMHO.

 

[navyao]

Also just finished reading a biography of Capt (?) John "Hawk" Smith, of old school Top Gun fame. Pretty interesting read, written by a retired friend of his. Lots of good info on the evolution of tactics, the school, and whatnot post Vietnam. Also details the initial operational testing of the Tomcat, as well as AIMVAL/ACEVAL

I concurr, great book! Just sent my copy to a WSO pal of mine in 102. My Gunner at 114 worked for Hawk when he was the Skipper at Top Gun, his troops loved him, a great leader and fighter pilot.

 

[scoolbubba]

Fighter Pilot, the autobiography of BGEN. Robin Olds. You don't have to be a fighter pilot to read this book! I've highlited a ton of gouge just about leadership alone. General Olds was definetly "old school" and I hope to God there are some of you out there like him! The book's easy to read, flows well and quite a few laughs in it too. I highly recommend it.

Highly recommend. Read it on the flight from LAX to HNL. BGEN Olds is one of the guys we'd kill to have in charge today.

 

[Catmando]

Haven't read Hero Found yet, but I knew Dieter slightly, as I was in his Airwing (CVW-14 on RANGER), on the '66 deployment. I joined VA-146 just prior to departure from CONUS, only 2 months prior to Dieter's (VA-145 A-1s) downing on our first day of combat ops over North Vietnam. And what a start it was...by days end - Dieter was down, VA-55 had an A-4E downed (Pilot recovered), & my Sqdn CO'S A-4C shot down (& KIA). Needless to say, an auspicious start.

So when he went down, I had known him only a couple of months. I can only say that he was a pleasant fellow, somewhat different (distant?), a "boomer" on liberty, w/ a distinct German accent. Another strange thing was that he was known to wear a set of civvies under his flight suit on combat missions, something I had never heard of before /or since. Afterward in retrospect, it seemed almost like he had a premonition of his eventual fate! I never saw him again, but heard that he had owned & ran a restaurant on Mt. Tamalpias in the SF Bay area, prior to his passing.

I have ordered the book, and look forward to learning more about the heroic actions of my late Shipmate.
BzB

"Strange" indeed, BZB. I think I will pass on the book though. I already know the story.

 

[Catmando]

Highly recommend. Read it on the flight from LAX to HNL. BGEN Olds is one of the guys we'd kill to have in charge today.

Concur! Originally I hesitated buying the book because he was Air Force, and I expected a bloated, egotistical rant. Man was I pleasantly surprised!
Awesome story, awesome individual, and an awesome must read!

 

[MIDNJAC]

Concur! Originally I hesitated buying the book because he was Air Force, and I expected a bloated, egotistical rant. Man was I pleasantly surprised!
Awesome story, awesome individual, and an awesome must read!

I thought it was really well done, especially the final chapter......that's how I hope that I go out too. Funny you mentioned the egotistical part.......friend of my old man's was in his wing in Vietnam flying F-4's, and his only comment was that the guy was a "total asshole". Reading between the lines of the book, I think it becomes pretty apparent that he was just the kind of hard ass that expected and got results from his boys. I'm thinking that then, just like now, that was probably lost on some of the junior O's......I know we tend to bitch when we get knocked down a peg or two for the betterment of our profession. Like others have said, he sounds like the definition of a combat aviator and leader of his kind.

 

[rondebmar]

I thought it was really well done, especially the final chapter......that's how I hope that I go out too. Funny you mentioned the egotistical part.......friend of my old man's was in his wing in Vietnam flying F-4's, and his only comment was that the guy was a "total asshole". Reading between the lines of the book, I think it becomes pretty apparent that he was just the kind of hard ass that expected and got results from his boys. I'm thinking that then, just like now, that was probably lost on some of the junior O's......I know we tend to bitch when we get knocked down a peg or two for the betterment of our profession. Like others have said, he sounds like the definition of a combat aviator and leader of his kind.

Have not read the book yet, but, two reliable sources...one, an individual with a deep connection to the military, the other a professional group NOT associated with the military, which knew him socially, would tend to agree...

 

[Uncle Fester]

I was literally about to post this. I'm about 350 pages into it and I started on Saturday. I found out that Midway was a huge clusterfuck, and Guadalcanal was also a giant clusterfuck. Only because the Japanese made a bigger shit show of it than we did were we able to come out on top. Great read.

Yeah I read it a year or two ago. Stanhope Ring definitely had blood on his hands... apparently he was a real douchebag as Hornet's CAG.

Another read in this vein I just finished is Midway, by Craig Symonds (USNA History prof - had him for a couple of classes - great writer and a great teacher). He goes on a good bit about CAG Ring and why exactly Torpedo Eight found itself alone and unafraid, something that usually gets glossed over in the story of the battle. I somehow found it comforting that douchebaggery is nothing new in the Navy.

 

[navyao]

Have not read the book yet, but, two reliable sources...one, an individual with a deep connection to the military, the other a professional group NOT associated with the military, which knew him socially, would tend to agree...

He was definetly a type A guy, but not A as in asshole. Here's a quote from ch. 21 titled simply Academy: "To get in some real flying, I'd sneak down to San Diego and fly with the Navy at Miramar. Damn - those guys were for real! It was dog eat dog, no pussyfooting around. Their air to air program was realistic and aggressive, They had their act together for training. If I didn't need to stay under the radar with admission of my flight time, I'd have been bugging TAC to no end to ramp up our own training."

I remember him mentioning the Navy one other time and like this one it too was positive. Those of you that served during Vietnam that haven't read the book yet should know he talks a lot about Route Pack I & Route Pack IV a lot. He talks about having to hang AIM-4 A/A missles on the F-4D. I'd never heard of the AIM-4 so I'm guessing we never had them.

 

[Catmando]

He was definetly a type A guy, but not A as in asshole. Here's a quote from ch. 21 titled simply Academy: "To get in some real flying, I'd sneak down to San Diego and fly with the Navy at Miramar. Damn - those guys were for real! It was dog eat dog, no pussyfooting around. Their air to air program was realistic and aggressive, They had their act together for training. If I didn't need to stay under the radar with admission of my flight time, I'd have been bugging TAC to no end to ramp up our own training."

I remember him mentioning the Navy one other time and like this one it too was positive. Those of you that served during Vietnam that haven't read the book yet should know he talks a lot about Route Pack I & Route Pack IV a lot. He talks about having to hang AIM-4 A/A missles on the F-4D. I'd never heard of the AIM-4 so I'm guessing we never had them.

No, never had the AIM-4, thank god. It was a disaster for the Air Force.

Olds in the book has several nice things to say about NavAir... things very true but surprising coming from an Air Force Ace of his stature.

At our VF-151 reunion last year, one of our guys said this:

F-4B pilot: "Forty years ago, I attended a speech at the Miramar O Club by a famous air force fighter pilot by the name of Brigadier General Robin Olds. He began his talk by saying he was honored to be in a room full of fighter pilots. I don't remember a thing he said after that, but I sure remembered that remark. Saturday night I knew exactly what he meant. Thanks for being "in the room." I was truly honored to be in the company of my former squadron mates."

 

[navyao]

Ha! Now I'm all geeked up about this. Yes the AIM-4 had no proximity fuse, it had to actually hit the target to blow - wow! I noticed in another thread the Dogfights episode about "Mugs" & Jack Ensch. So, I remembered watching an episode of Dogfights about the 8 TFW and Robin Olds initiating Operation Bolo, here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTvunIg5mqg

Maybe Tom Hanks or Steven Spielberg could be talked into making a movie about Robin.

 

[tomcatfan]

Ha! Now I'm all geeked up about this. Yes the AIM-4 had no proximity fuse, it had to actually hit the target to blow - wow! I noticed in another thread the Dogfights episode about "Mugs" & Jack Ensch. So, I remembered watching an episode of Dogfights about the 8 TFW and Robin Olds initiating Operation Bolo, here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTvunIg5mqg

Maybe Tom Hanks or Steven Spielberg could be talked into making a movie about Robin.

Awesome find, ended up watching all 5 parts

 

[Catmando]

We were aware of Operation Bolo a few years later. But I never knew much about it until I recently read Old's book. [AF and the Nav never shared anything!] And now I'm pissed! Although Naval Air was far ahead of the Air Force at the time, I now decades later have learned what I should have known back then, and what Olds belatedly learned - That there was an almost instant translation of enemy fighters' and their controllers' transmissions available to us, but never given!

We were never told, because of OPSEC. Halfway through 1972 I belatedly learned – and probably not should have learned - what Olds had learned 5 years earlier to his anger, when I visited our Red Crown controllers on the USS Truxton. That fruitful visit set up a smaller, Bolo-type deception a few days later that worked because we now knew the bad guys had similar technology and translators. It nearly got me a MiG.

The Spooks saved a lot of Intel that we in the arena could and should have used. Unfortunately and apparently, Vietnam was not worth showing our hand. They saved that particular intel for a future showdown with the Soviet Union.