Back in those days she wouldn't have gotten the attention she craves through social media. Since she was able to spread her message, it's important to send a message in return.
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Sailor Sits During National Anthem on Base
- Thread starter DanMa1156
- Start date
This incident aside, the threshold for NJP is way too low these days, IMO. For behavioral issues, I'm generally in favor of letting the Chiefs take a stab at correcting a deficiency before going high order. I'm also fairly confident that if this kind of behavior was observed, most rank and file Sailors would correct the individual on the spot.
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I'd bet this combination would do the trick. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Brett.
Interesting discussion. Bigger picture, I've said for a long time that leadership style isn't necessary right or wrong, it's just that person's style. However, that doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
So here's where I'm not certain having the Chiefs fix the issue is the sole answer... For the sake of the discussion, let's assume she's still in A-School. Just like when you were a SNFO, the rules aren't the same as in a fleet command and there's lots of kiddie rules to imbue proper behavior down the road. So wouldn't this be the time to be a little harsher to impart the message? I'm not advocating 30/60 or something similar, but at least some sort of Mast. Personally, I think Rugby's idea is pretty smart. "You want to die on this hill? Okay, we'll have the paperwork to make this quick but painful."
Brett, I know you know this, but I think people get locked into thinking NJP=Mast (or XOI). Sometimes the ceremony of the situation can get the point across without actually invoking any NJP. And of course, there's also Meritorious Mast, which is still Mast.
By the way, this is way more interesting than hear about OCS stats.
So here's where I'm not certain having the Chiefs fix the issue is the sole answer... For the sake of the discussion, let's assume she's still in A-School. Just like when you were a SNFO, the rules aren't the same as in a fleet command and there's lots of kiddie rules to imbue proper behavior down the road. So wouldn't this be the time to be a little harsher to impart the message? I'm not advocating 30/60 or something similar, but at least some sort of Mast. Personally, I think Rugby's idea is pretty smart. "You want to die on this hill? Okay, we'll have the paperwork to make this quick but painful."
Brett, I know you know this, but I think people get locked into thinking NJP=Mast (or XOI). Sometimes the ceremony of the situation can get the point across without actually invoking any NJP. And of course, there's also Meritorious Mast, which is still Mast.
By the way, this is way more interesting than hear about OCS stats.
This is also a way more interesting conversation than whether or not Kaepernick et al are "right" or "wrong" to sit during national anthem.
exNavyOffRec
Well-Known Member
I agree, if someone saw it they would have corrected it, she was probably in a low visibility area trying to make a statement on video/pic, that type of person is going to have a hard time in the USN, of course it will all be someone else's fault.
On a related but different note, around 20 years ago I was at a NRD recruiting banquet, many drank a bit too early and a BM1 had a bit too much to drink so when they went to do the National Anthem he stayed sitting, the other first class told him to get up and the BM1 said "fuck you" loud enough many took notice, the next sound was the first classes fist impacting the BM1's face, in front of the BM1's wife.
Good discussion. I think some people are instantly inclined to think a severe punishment is appropriate because they don't like what she did. I can understand that, but when you break it down, she failed to follow a regulation/order/instruction/etc. Do we take every Sailor to mast for not following the rules? Depends, doesn't it? The organization also has to be fair and consistent. If Airman Timmy's hair is out of regs, do we send him to mast? Probably not the first thing that comes to mind. We correct Airman Timmy and see where it goes. In a vacuum, we're just guessing at some of these things that would go into the CO's decision.
That's why there's a process for this. Start with DRB and the CPOs. Is she combative or does she realize she's made a big mistake? Are there extenuating or aggravating circumstances? If after all of this, she needs to go to mast, so be it. I'm just concerned that many people are jumping right to the last step in the process. You have people on FB saying she should be dishonorably discharged. Of course, that's ridiculous, but it goes to the fact that they hate what she did without really understanding the mechanics of it.
That's why there's a process for this. Start with DRB and the CPOs. Is she combative or does she realize she's made a big mistake? Are there extenuating or aggravating circumstances? If after all of this, she needs to go to mast, so be it. I'm just concerned that many people are jumping right to the last step in the process. You have people on FB saying she should be dishonorably discharged. Of course, that's ridiculous, but it goes to the fact that they hate what she did without really understanding the mechanics of it.
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Especially when NJP is not necessarily what it once was . . . a kick to the junk but not necessarily a career-ender. Big Navy is much less forgiving. In such a case, it's good to retain a CO's ability to put a Sailor all the way through DRB and XOI, have them sign the paperwork, hopefully put the fear of God into them that they might be well and truly fooked, bring them in to Captain's Mast, rip them up one side of the ready room and down the other . . . and then dismiss with a verbal admonishment.
If nothing else, if that fails, you know they're stupid or foolish enough that NJP is appropriate.
The point is that she filmed herself sitting during the anthem because she thinks it represents racism. She has absolutely no business serving in the armed forces if that's the case, and if it was up to me I would expedite her discharge as soon as possible. If she can't stand for the national anthem, what faith do you have that she will perform her duties in combat?
Eh, she's junior. She has time to be fixed. That's the same kind of crap that people try to say if your boots aren't shiny, have a "non approved" patch, zipper too low, etc, that you can't follow the big rules. That stuff has place in boot camp and initial entry training, but you can't pull that line of thinking towards sooooooooo many rules/regs that we don't adhere to the letter of on a daily basis. I agree with the DRB/XOI route and then going to mast. Whether or not you actually "award" her anything at mast beyond a giant flame spray, well, that's why skippers get paid the bigger bucks. Part of me leans toward the handle solely on the LCPO level, but the flagrant and willful disregard for a regulation doesn't sit well with me.
Discharge based on what? Assuming this is her first offense, you can't just kick her out for this. There are rules and process that must play out. To ADSEP her, you either need a serious offense (which this does not meet that standard), or a pattern of misconduct. If she is as you say, she may get to that point eventually, but based upon what I've seen, this falls short from a legal perspective.
I actually agree with Brett on this one.
45 days of publicly standing at attention for morning and evening colors in every uniform in her sea bag would be a great start to getting this sailor back on the right track.
It blows my mind that some of you are comparing this to not having a haircut or boots polished. I pity the unit that gets to deal with this turd eventually.
Put her at sea, on something small, underway, and busy. Having a commander, or XO, or CPO that shares her race would be even more helpful - the potential sting of racism, real or imagined, would be lessened. Every morning, rough sailing or not, she does the national honor. Every evening, the same. If there is liberty to be had she would be required to go out in uniform, as long as she is back in time for evening colors. At the same time a remedial class in US and Naval history might help.
1) Bring back the stocks--have her locked in them in saluting position every time someone sees a flag.
2) A publicly-posted essay every day analyzing the latest Trump speech and why he is right and she is wrong.
3) She must organize a letter-writing campaign to every textbook printer in the world who dares to mention so-called "slavery" or "imperialism," or refers to the conflict of 1861-1865 as anything other than the War of Northern Aggression, demanding that they cease from slandering the billions of Americans who died on September 11 so they could be free.
4) She must sit under a bald eagle for two hours every Sunday morning and allow it to poop on her head, and then wear that poop until colors the next morning. If the eagle does not poop, then it is a sign that God wants us to find a different way to punish her.
5) She must personally seek out every SOLDIER/SAILOR/AIRMAN/MARINE in possession of a Confederate battle flag, which is NOT at all the symbol of a sedition that actually cost lives, and compliment these servicemembers on being true and loyal Americans, committed to all that built America and made it great.
2) A publicly-posted essay every day analyzing the latest Trump speech and why he is right and she is wrong.
3) She must organize a letter-writing campaign to every textbook printer in the world who dares to mention so-called "slavery" or "imperialism," or refers to the conflict of 1861-1865 as anything other than the War of Northern Aggression, demanding that they cease from slandering the billions of Americans who died on September 11 so they could be free.
4) She must sit under a bald eagle for two hours every Sunday morning and allow it to poop on her head, and then wear that poop until colors the next morning. If the eagle does not poop, then it is a sign that God wants us to find a different way to punish her.
5) She must personally seek out every SOLDIER/SAILOR/AIRMAN/MARINE in possession of a Confederate battle flag, which is NOT at all the symbol of a sedition that actually cost lives, and compliment these servicemembers on being true and loyal Americans, committed to all that built America and made it great.