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Scooters Forever (A-4 Skyhawk Tribute Thread)

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
Demonstrably false. AOA is a function of airspeed, so off the end of the cat stroke it means something in a very real and immediate sense. In order to keep catapult end speeds within reasonable bounds, a lot of the older delta-winged aircraft used a longer nose landing gear to sit at a higher angle, inducing an AOA during the cat stroke to prevent settle. Extra room for large stores under the jet was an ancillary benefit.

Later designs like the F/A-18 and F-35 did away with some of this due to a number of features like leading edge extensions, leading edge flaps, and a high degree of control power stemming from their large horizontal stabilators. In the F/A-18, the highest AOA in the terminal environment is just off the cat as the aircraft accelerates under its own power and rotates based on stabilator trim setting (hands-free so the pilot doesn't over or under-rotate). With the gear and flaps down, the jet is seeking alpha (AOA), just like it does during an approach, so the loss of an AOA probe can cause pitch excursions immediately off the cat. Ask me how I know. ;)
AOA is a function of airspeed. You made my point. AOA is a certain airspeed for a certain angle of attack. Remember those airspeed/AOA cross-checks on approach? If the failure of an AOA probe is critical for takeoff then that’s a design flaw. Since I am guilty of flying older airplanes, it’s set an attitude and accelerate. Off a runway, it’s at a computed speed. Off the Cat it’s an end speed. I think we are talking around each other. I get what you’re saying but at the end the day it’s end speed not AOA.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
AOA is a function of airspeed. You made my point. AOA is a certain airspeed for a certain angle of attack. Remember those airspeed/AOA cross-checks on approach? If the failure of an AOA probe is critical for takeoff then that’s a design flaw. Since I am guilty of flying older airplanes, it’s set an attitude and accelerate. Off a runway, it’s at a computed speed. Off the Cat it’s an end speed. I think we are talking around each other. I get what you’re saying but at the end the day it’s end speed not AOA.

Yeah, we're definitely talking around each other. I'll take "coefficient of lift" for 1000, Alex.

This whole section of the thread started because of the discussion about landing gear design of the A4 and its induced AOA by design. That doesn't make sense to you? Your original post said AOA doesn't mean jack coming off the cat, which simply isn't true. You need speed and AOA in order to generate enough lift to fly away. Coming off at 200 knots with zero AOA on the wing won't be enough- at least not without rotation to a positive AOA. Similarly, coming off at 14 degrees AOA and 50 knots isn't gonna work either. Clear enough?
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
Yeah, we're definitely talking around each other. I'll take "coefficient of lift" for 1000, Alex.

This whole section of the thread started because of the discussion about landing gear design of the A4 and its induced AOA by design. That doesn't make sense to you? Your original post said AOA doesn't mean jack coming off the cat, which simply isn't true. You need speed and AOA in order to generate enough lift to fly away. Coming off at 200 knots with zero AOA on the wing won't be enough- at least not without rotation to a positive AOA. Similarly, coming off at 14 degrees AOA and 50 knots isn't gonna work either. Clear enough?
We are certainly talking around each other! My point is that nobody flys AOA on takeoff or off the Cat (except apparently new generation aircraft)
 

Llarry

Well-Known Member
And a non-Scooter with a Mark 7 bomb: An overall blue AD-6 (A-1H) SPAD with a Mark 7 on the centerline and a couple of JATO units so it can deck launch, I presume. The aircraft belongs to Naval Air Special Weapons Facility Albuquerque.NASWF AD-6 w Mk 7 & JATO.jpg
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Here's another photo of a Mark 7 bomb on a Scooter -- this time on the cat on USS Saratoga. Note that the bottom fin was retracted until after takeoff. Plenty of clearance.View attachment 39732
Behind it is the Navy’s strategic nuclear bomber, the A-3 Skywarrior. The Skywarrior’s daddy was the propeller driven AJ Savage.
 

Llarry

Well-Known Member
Behind it is the Navy’s strategic nuclear bomber, the A-3 Skywarrior. The Skywarrior’s daddy was the propeller driven AJ Savage.
The whole rationale for the heavy attack aircraft (AJ, then A-3) was to carry the large weapons of the early period. The Mark 5 (pictured) was 43.75 inches in diameter, about 130 inches long and weighed 3,000+ pounds. When the Mark 7 came along, we could finally contemplate using something more reasonably sized for the mission. The Whale took up a lot of deck space! Mk 5 bomb.jpg
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
My favorite A-4 : OA-4M - the ultimate Scooter!

iwakuni_based_oa_4m_by_f16crewchief_dg7wtos-fullview.jpg
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
I went to Gitmo for a weeks-long E2 drug interdiction det in my fleet squadron back in 1988. I was a brand new Ensign Null-P in the squadron, shut up and do what I'm told. We took a day off to relax and have a picnic.

I walked over to the A4 squadron in the hangar where I knew a guy from flight school, and asked if it'd be possible to maybe go for a ride while I was there. The Ops guy asked if my leadership was cool with it, I lied and said yes. He said he was getting ready to go fly, and I was welcome to jump in. Sweet! Grabbed my harness, borrowed a G-suit, and off we went. I remember he was pre-flighting, and stood up underneath the wing and all but drove this metal lever sticking down right through his skull. His eyes uncaged for a moment and he was bleeding over his forehead, but wiped it up and we manned up.

Got into the bombing pattern over the base and dropped little blue ones on a school bus on the range, then strafed it a few times. Went off the coast and zorched around for a bit. Got back in the landing pattern and he let me take it for a couple of laps. I waved at my squadron mates at the approach end picnic area, who were no longer wondering where I was off to. I was pretty stoked about the whole thing.

The det OIC really didn't know if he should be pissed or not. Good show of initiative? I pled juniority and promised to either not to it again, or not tell anyone I did it.
 

Fallonflyr

Well-Known Member
pilot
My favorite A-4 : OA-4M - the ultimate Scooter!

iwakuni_based_oa_4m_by_f16crewchief_dg7wtos-fullview.jpg
Got my first choice out of flight school, A-4M. At the time there was a 6 month pool at the RAG in Yuma so orders in hand the the HAMs squadron in Cherry Point where they said I could fly the OA-4 since we came out of flight school with an A-4 NATOPS qual. The day I checked in they told me I had to go over to the group and talk to them. The next day I classed up at VMA(AW) 202. Never got a chance to fly the A-4 again. Would have loved to fly that bird.
 
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JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
The det OIC really didn't know if he should be pissed or not. Good show of initiative? I pled juniority and promised to either not to it again, or not tell anyone I did it.
That's one COA to get a ride...

Another COA is to steal one.


Probably a best practice to check the open MAFs beforehand though. 🤫
 

Fallonflyr

Well-Known Member
pilot
That's one COA to get a ride...

Another COA is to steal one.


Probably a best practice to check the open MAFs beforehand though. 🤫
One of my sim instructors in the Hornet RAG was the Station Duty Officer that day…crazy story.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
That's one COA to get a ride...

Another COA is to steal one.


Probably a best practice to check the open MAFs beforehand though. 🤫
Guy ended up working as an aeronautical engineer and test pilot, qualified in 20+ different military and civilian aircraft. He was (or might still be) working with NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He also holds a number of patents in aviation design and engineering technology. Not bad for a corporal with an Other Than Honorable ticket.
 
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