NEWS Seahawks Sink Houthi Boats

[Hotdogs]

I get what you're saying, my question is how do you differentiate on a ship who is actively participating and who isn't?

By training, every sailor learns damage control, so can one say that by having a ASCM shot at a boat means all crew are actively participating by being ready to man a repair locker?

Or, do we say that only those on watch qualify? Sorry to the kid asleep in his rack because he worked mids, but just because he got fragged when the missile hits, he doesn't qualify?

I know I'm being somewhat pedantic, but as Brett alluded to, where do you draw the line on what group qualifies on the boat, and which ones don't?

What happens when your alert lines on the flight sked gets launched one day but not the next? Does the entire ready room log air medal points? There’s clearly a system of people, but I would argue that doesn’t involve the entire crew.

You don’t.

Original history of the CAR:

Contact, Brawls, and Chambering: The Combat Action Ribbon

Today’s post comes from Thomas Richardson, an expert archives technician at the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) in St. Louis, Missouri. Not all service members in the United States A…

prologue.blogs.archives.gov

As per the original issuance and retroactive intent, it’s not fucking awards inflation, unless we want to bitch that it was inflated when originally established in 1969.

Relevant parts:

Yeah, well maybe it was? I’m not saying sailors shouldn’t be awarded the CAR, but a little more distinction probably wouldn’t hurt.

Of course you can. This hair splitting is a bit bizarre. Your opinion is noted.

My opinion? My brother in Christ, this is the opinion of every single Marine when this subject comes up (usually includes a collective massive eye roll).

 

[BigRed389]

What do we do when your alert lines on the flight sked gets launched one day but not the next? Does the entire ready room log air medal points? There’s clearly a system of people, but I would argue that doesn’t involve the entire crew.



Yeah, well maybe it was? I’m not saying sailors shouldn’t be awarded the CAR, but a little more distinction probably wouldn’t hurt.



My opinion? My brother in Christ, this is the opinion of every single Marine when this subject comes up (usually includes a collective massive eye roll).

When ”distinction” really means adding arbitrary rules we make up for no good reason, it does hurt.

Unless there is an official change made, there is no “distinction” to be had. The crew all rate it per the eligibility criteria and established precedent. Which are the only things leadership should be considering, not what Marines salty about FOB IDF being excluded during the forever war from CAR eligibility think.

If you think the criteria need to be rewritten that’s a different debate entirely.

 

[Hotdogs]

The crew all rate it per the eligibility criteria and established precedent.

FIFY. I purpose adding an “asterisk” device for all SWO CARs. Maybe that’ll help with the distinction.
I’m not adding any arbitrary rules about the award. It’s quite literally black and white (Pretty sure I’ve cited exact verbiage from the manual). Whatever makes you feel better about yourselves.

 

[Griz882]

You don’t.

Original history of the CAR:

Contact, Brawls, and Chambering: The Combat Action Ribbon

Today’s post comes from Thomas Richardson, an expert archives technician at the National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) in St. Louis, Missouri. Not all service members in the United States A…

prologue.blogs.archives.gov

As per the original issuance and retroactive intent, it’s not fucking awards inflation, unless we want to bitch that it was inflated when originally established in 1969.

Relevant parts:

The comments in the NARA article are almost as funny as the ones here.

 

[Sonog]

I get what you're saying, my question is how do you differentiate on a ship who is actively participating and who isn't?

By training, every sailor learns damage control, so can one say that by having a ASCM shot at a boat means all crew are actively participating by being ready to man a repair locker?

Or, do we say that only those on watch qualify? Sorry to the kid asleep in his rack because he worked mids, but just because he got fragged when the missile hits, he doesn't qualify?

I know I'm being somewhat pedantic, but as Brett alluded to, where do you draw the line on what group qualifies on the boat, and which ones don't?

If I'm not getting midrats, I'm not sleeping as well the night before. Then who knows, maybe I over/under spill on those shots.

 

[sevenhelmet]

THIS is still going on?

Might be worth a thread split, so any medal justice warriors can discuss what’s important to them, outside of the war in Israel, the war in Ukraine, and the Houthi/Iranian regional escalation.

Cheers!

 

[Gatordev]

Good journalism doesn't happen for free

I think we're still waiting for the good journalism part. I'm baffled how so many people who actually know things keep pointing out Ward's weaknesses, but you don't want to acknowledge them.

Beyond all that, congrats to the Romeo crew...and better luck next time for the Sierras. I'd love to watch the DVR footage!

 

[Flash]

An entire ship getting a CAR is a ridiculous notion. Yes, I realize it has been done before....

Flash, Okay. First the CAR is an individual award and outright awarding an entire unit is absurd (Awards manual states as such). It always has been… Secondly, using the “that’s how we’ve always done it” excuse is intellectually lazy. We can disagree, but you gotta have better material than that brother.

Since the award was established the CAR has been awarded to the entire crew of ships involved in combat, from its inception during Vietnam, which is in line with individual awards often being awarded to the entire crew of a vessel for combat action since the beginning of World War II.

As for being intellectually lazy, I and numerous other folks here have pointed out the impossibility of trying to differentiate who was 'directly' involved in combat on a ship that is being attacked versus combat on land.

To your last point, I have yet to see a Marine awarded that ribbon who wasn’t at least directly engaged in a combat scenario.

I know several, to include one that used to be a member of this board.

If a Tank or AAV crewman fails to do his job then the tank is combat ineffective. I.e. The tank doesn’t return fire or engage appropriately - You can’t say the same in combat for a ships crew. Active participation is the criteria.

Those crewmen would still get a CAR, even if they fail to do their job. Figure that.

Also the vast majority of mechanized crew members operate secondary weapons systems anyways.

As long as we are splitting hairs, how about about 'non-mechanized' folks just riding along in plain 'ol vehicles? 'Cause that is exactly how at least one of the (former) Marines I know got his CAR.

We created air medals for aviators because we realized there was a distinction between aerial and ground combat. It’s a silly notion to not recognize surface combat is any different.

Funny you should mention that since the original criteria for the Air Medal was for an entire crew to be awarded one if a "combat naval vessel" was destroyed. An entire crew recognized with individual medals to include folks who didn't pull a trigger like the Co-pilot, Radioman and Flight Engineer (who was likely in the galley making spam sandwiches)?!

As for a new award for those lowly SWO's, that is likely up to the Secretary of the Navy. Good luck with that.

My opinion? My brother in Christ, this is the opinion of every single Marine when this subject comes up (usually includes a collective massive eye roll).

How will I sleep at night knowing this?

 

[Flash]

I recall reading somewhere on here that the DFC was a typical award for an air to air kill.

A good friend of mine got a Silver Star for an air-to-air kill, but that's probably the exception, not the rule.

From Vietnam on both have commonly awarded for air-to-air kills, seems to depend on the circumstances as well as the CoC at the time.

 

[insanebikerboy]

What happens when your alert lines on the flight sked gets launched one day but not the next? Does the entire ready room log air medal points? There’s clearly a system of people, but I would argue that doesn’t involve the entire crew.

Man, you do you and it’s your opinion, but you are really reaching here.

 

[Flash]

Not to belabor the point there is significantly more danger to the entire crew of a vessel being struck by enemy fire than a base or even a land-based vehicle. Two of the five US Navy vessels (that I can recall) that have suffered significant damage from enemy attack since the Vietnam War suffered significant casualties as a result, unfortunately with casualty rates similar to that suffered by some of the worst hit land combat units of similar or larger size in Iraq and Afghanistan:

USS Stark - Struck by two Iraqi Exocet ASCM's in 1987 - 37 killed, 21 wounded out of a crew of ~225
USS Cole - Struck by ship-borne IED in 2000 - 17 killed, 37 wounded out of a crew of ~280

And yes, several of the weapons the Huthis have been shooting off can cause significant damage to a ship if it strikes one.

 

[DanMa1156]

10NM Hellfire huh? Were they in the flight levels?

As he stated in one of his videos it's the AGM-114R which is also when I decide to turn it off, unsubscribe from his channel and resolve to stop watching / giving this guy any youtube ad time.

 

[Flash]

As he stated in one of his videos it's the AGM-114R which is also when I decide to turn it off, unsubscribe from his channel and resolve to stop watching / giving this guy any youtube ad time.

But...but...he's wearing a flight jacket (of some kind) with F-14 patches, how does that not scream 'legitimacy'?!

 

[BigRed389]

Not to belabor the point there is significantly more danger to the entire crew of a vessel being struck by enemy fire than a base or even a land-based vehicle. Two of the five US Navy vessels (that I can recall) that have suffered significant damage from enemy attack since the Vietnam War suffered significant casualties as a result, unfortunately with casualty rates similar to that suffered by some of the worst hit land combat units of similar or larger size in Iraq and Afghanistan:

USS Stark - Struck by two Iraqi Exocet ASCM's in 1987 - 37 killed, 21 wounded out of a crew of ~225
USS Cole - Struck by ship-borne IED in 2000 - 17 killed, 37 wounded out of a crew of ~280

And yes, several of the weapons the Huthis have been shooting off can cause significant damage to a ship if it strikes one.

Also worth noting is that those examples are ships that were relatively “lucky”. Stark - one of the 2 Exocet failed to detonate, and Exocet is pretty “small” as ASCMs go. Cole was also relatively “lucky” they were in port.

In addition to the ASCMs they’ve been hucking, Iran’s given the Houthis a few ASBMs which they’ve popped off as well, which would be far deadlier if they impacted.

FIFY. I purpose adding an “asterisk” device for all SWO CARs. Maybe that’ll help with the distinction.
I’m not adding any arbitrary rules about the award. It’s quite literally black and white (Pretty sure I’ve cited exact verbiage from the manual). Whatever makes you feel better about yourselves.

How about Marines just make a CIB so you can quit having people with nothing better to do from fucking with the CAR?

The only thing the manual says is “actively participating.” It does not specifically define what that is. Adding anything more to that is in fact arbitrary.

This is as stupid as debating what is a “real” Purple Heart.

 

[ea6bflyr]

FIFY. I purpose adding an “asterisk” device for all SWO CARs. Maybe that’ll help with the distinction.
I’m not adding any arbitrary rules about the award. It’s quite literally black and white (Pretty sure I’ve cited exact verbiage from the manual). Whatever makes you feel better about yourselves.

Let it go....the collective "we" at AirWarriors understand your position, BUT we have no say so in the awarding of such devices.

So it is a done deal. No need to continue to fight about it.