SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes

[villanelle]

I'm curious about how letting Peter Pans stay in as pit pilots and instructors helps retain "the best and the brightest". Sure, it let's those guys stay instead of leave, but that just means fewer spots for those behind them to either move up or move laterally into their own Peter Pan spots, so there's still going to be the same exodus, no? 100 pilots going to 75 jobs is always going to leave 25 people out, and when 10 of those 75 are filled with people who've been parked in those spots for a decade, only 65 get to move up and 35 of that cadre have to leave. That's certainly better for the 10 who get to stay as long as they please, but is it really better for the 100 guys who are competing for fewer spots? Or for the Navy in general? It seems like selection rates would become even lower (65% vs 75% in my fake example), and yet the selection rates and the solid records that got passed over recently seems to be the problem that this purports to solve. Until one of those 10 guys decided to give up his Lt for life job, it's still not going to be a real option for anyone, unless there's an unlimited number of Peter Pan spots, which seem like it would create a whole new set of problems. And even that would prevent the Navy from recruiting the "best and brightest" since they'd be taking almost no new pilots every year due to the system be crammed full of people going neither up nor out.

 

[Spekkio]

Dude, I don't even know how to reply to that. The old "regs" on BCA were never an adequate way to measure fitness levels. It's nice to see someone trying to fix a broken system instead of just drinking the cool aid. The system was broke and needed to get fixed. Instead of seeing that, and trying to be part of a solution, you continue to be part of the problem. Let me guess, there is nothing wrong with our promotion system or retention either, right? Damn man, how long does this cycle have to go on? Well, people treated me like shit when I was new and I made it through, so now I get to treat the new guys like shit. Wake up and smell the coffee burning.

If they really fixed the bca system to measure bf with calipers then we'd kick out a lot more sailors for being over regs instead of just the guys the cfl won't lie for.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Dude, I don't even know how to reply to that. The old "regs" on BCA were never an adequate way to measure fitness levels. It's nice to see someone trying to fix a broken system instead of just drinking the cool aid. The system was broke and needed to get fixed. Instead of seeing that, and trying to be part of a solution, you continue to be part of the problem. Let me guess, there is nothing wrong with our promotion system or retention either, right? Damn man, how long does this cycle have to go on? Well, people treated me like shit when I was new and I made it through, so now I get to treat the new guys like shit. Wake up and smell the coffee burning.

That's a sad argument of shifting responsibility away from the sailor and onto the Navy and getting rid of any personal accountability on the part of the sailor. There is a standard, good or bad, that everyone knows pretty much from their first day in the Navy. It doesn't matter if it's accurate or not, and I never argued that it was, but the standard exists and has existed for a long time. The sailors didn't meet it and now they're getting the boot.

If someone can't lose enough weight in 4 years and fails 3 times, how many more chances do they need? 4 years is a helluva long time to get their ass in some semblance of shape, regardless if you agree with the regs or not.

 

[EODDave]

Then by your same logic the hundreds of aviators that got cut on the O4 board last year and probably this year have no reason to complain. They knew they should have had sustained superior performance and only have themselves to blame. It was/is their responsibility to perform at a higher level.

 

[Spekkio]

Sustained superior performance on the pfa = maximum on all events and in bca standards. How many sailors were booted for maxing the prt and weighing in sat?

 

[EODDave]

How many of the 03's that were let go where sustained superior performers?

 

[EODDave]

My point is that there are problems with numerous programs in the Navy and it's about time they get fixed. If after the O4 board made their cuts last year and separated a ton of guys, and the day after they were separated the Navy changed the regs, how do you think those that were shown the door would feel? Sorry bro, you weren't good enough yesterday but today you would have been fine.

 

[EODDave]

Oh and by the way one of the sailors that was discharged for BCA failures had 18 years and change in the Navy. With the proposed new standards he would not have failed any of the BCAs.

 

[nittany03]

Sustained superior performance on the pfa = maximum on all events and in bca standards. How many sailors were booted for maxing the prt and weighing in sat?

Oh, bullshit. There is zero incentive to max the PRT under the current standards. All it gets you is "PP" on your eval/FITREP. Someone gets an Excellent or Outstanding? Good on 'em. But as long as they meet the minimum and don't look unprofessionally fat, mad PT skillz are honestly fourth on my list of "shit I care about" behind technical competence, mentoring their juniors, and not dorking up the admin side of the house if they're an LPO or higher.

I don't give a tin shit that you're an ACFL when I get a QA audit of your shop plunked on my desk that's AFU with nasty comments from the MO. Yes, that happened, and I was not a happy camper.

 

[Brett327]

 

[CommodoreMid]

I'm curious about how letting Peter Pans stay in as pit pilots and instructors helps retain "the best and the brightest". Sure, it let's those guys stay instead of leave, but that just means fewer spots for those behind them to either move up or move laterally into their own Peter Pan spots, so there's still going to be the same exodus, no? 100 pilots going to 75 jobs is always going to leave 25 people out, and when 10 of those 75 are filled with people who've been parked in those spots for a decade, only 65 get to move up and 35 of that cadre have to leave. That's certainly better for the 10 who get to stay as long as they please, but is it really better for the 100 guys who are competing for fewer spots? Or for the Navy in general? It seems like selection rates would become even lower (65% vs 75% in my fake example), and yet the selection rates and the solid records that got passed over recently seems to be the problem that this purports to solve. Until one of those 10 guys decided to give up his Lt for life job, it's still not going to be a real option for anyone, unless there's an unlimited number of Peter Pan spots, which seem like it would create a whole new set of problems. And even that would prevent the Navy from recruiting the "best and brightest" since they'd be taking almost no new pilots every year due to the system be crammed full of people going neither up nor out.

Concur, though I think there's a happy medium between our current system and the LT for life system which showed why it wouldn't work in between the World Wars. One option is to get rid of the 2x FOS and zone option but retain the high year limits for time in grade. This would allow for people to explore different tours and jobs before the next community milestone and take care of people with unique circumstances (long time through flight school due to medical issues, family problems, etc) but force people to grow. Let's say hypothetically you can remain in each commissioned grade for 7 years (pulling numbers out of my ass so bear with me) and at each promotion board each year you can either opt in or opt out based on your circumstances, milestones hit, and plain desire to serve at the next level. This would allow people to go get that masters, be a WTI instructor guru honing skills, pursue that staff job, take an easy shore duty to have time to make babies, etc, on their own plan, but ultimately at that 7th year you have to be included on that promotion board. You don't make it on that last look, you're out. When you put on the next pay grade, your 7 year clock starts again for the same purpose.

 

[Spekkio]

Oh, bullshit. There is zero incentive to max the PRT under the current standards. All it gets you is "PP" on your eval/FITREP. Someone gets an Excellent or Outstanding? Good on 'em. But as long as they meet the minimum and don't look unprofessionally fat, mad PT skillz are honestly fourth on my list of "shit I care about" behind technical competence, mentoring their juniors, and not dorking up the admin side of the house if they're an LPO or higher.

I don't give a tin shit that you're an ACFL when I get a QA audit of your shop plunked on my desk that's AFU with nasty comments from the MO. Yes, that happened, and I was not a happy camper.

Simmer down. I was simply pointing out that if you wanted to draw an analogy to someone who has 'sustained superior performance' and a #1 EP on their fitrep, then you need to use a proper example. The guy who failed 3 BCAs and struggles to run 1.5 miles without stopping or needs someone to magic count his pushups is not exemplifying 'sustained superior performance' on his PFA by any stretch of the definition.

You don't think maxing the PFA is important. Great, neither does the Navy. Neither do I. But the Navy does think it's important that Sailors maintain a bare minimum of physical fitness so that they aren't paying for the adverse health effects that can come with being overweight and dealing with the resulting unplanned losses. Let's take a step back here - the PFA standards are not difficult and they're not a secret. We're not asking anyone to be the next American ninja warrior. And we're giving people a year and a half to get their shit together if they fail.

But you know what I do care about? When a sailor is so fat that he can't get down a hatch in a scba to go put a hose on a fire. But he magically passed his PFA. Or when you have a COB who is about 50 lbs overweight loudly telling all his sailors how physical fitness isn't important. He also magically passes all his PFAs. Yea, that happened too.

The taping standard might be inaccurate, but it's generally inaccurate in a way that under-estimates bodyfat, not over-estimates it.

 

[nittany03]

You don't think maxing the PFA is important. Great, neither does the Navy. Neither do I. But the Navy does think it's important that Sailors maintain a bare minimum of physical fitness so that they aren't paying for the adverse health effects that can come with being overweight and dealing with the resulting unplanned losses. Let's take a step back here - the PFA standards are not difficult and they're not a secret. We're not asking anyone to be the next American ninja warrior. And we're giving people a year and a half to get their shit together if they fail.

But you know what I do care about? When a sailor is so fat that he can't get down a hatch in a scba to go put a hose on a fire. But he magically passed his PFA. Or when you have a COB who is about 50 lbs overweight loudly telling all his sailors how physical fitness isn't important. He also magically passes all his PFAs. Yea, that happened too.

The taping standard might be inaccurate, but it's generally inaccurate in a way that under-estimates bodyfat, not over-estimates it.

OK, no simmering down needed. We just had a typical Internet miscommunication and it turns out we're in violent agreement. Par for the course around here from time to time. Peace.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Then by your same logic the hundreds of aviators that got cut on the O4 board last year and probably this year have no reason to complain. They knew they should have had sustained superior performance and only have themselves to blame. It was/is their responsibility to perform at a higher level.

You're comparing apples to oranges. 100% of the people who meet the BCA standards stay in the Navy. Not so with FITREPs and promotions.

 

[smoke_screen]

So why is it not possible for the military to do a same thing? If you're happy being a division officer and want to stay put, why not?

Something tells me there a lot of people at Pt. Loma making that trade-off and there'd be plenty of terminal LTs at NAS Key West. I also have a feeling that Kingsville and Norfolk would somehow have a disproportionate number of career-oriented, golden-path strivers hanging around always looking to move up in life. Or just move in life. Hawaii will also be supremely well-defended, greatly benefiting from the corporate knowledge and technical expertise of an expansive 20-year-LT cadre.