SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes

[ChuckM]

Let me shift gears for a minute - the current 2nd Sea Tour Gouge on the PERS-43 website states that 5th or 7th Fleet Staff jobs are considered competitive despite no opportunity to earn OOD. Anyone know anyone who has done this and competed successfully for O-4 and / or DH? What are the pros and cons of this? (Maybe need a threadjack from the original purpose of this thread).

The guys I know out there (7th fleet), now and in years past, have holes in their resumes. One had a high water MP, the other took a non observed PEP tour. This is typical of most who take these billets. Your paper is written by a three star admiral, so there's that... Now that you get two legit looks at O-4 without the board seeing you were previously passed over, it might be a descent place to recover from situations like the guys above.

If you want to live in Japan for about 50% of the time and pull into the same 3-5 Asian ports the other 50%, then do it. This billet is all about a certain lifestyle and not about advantage getting promoted... Just my two cents.

 

[dodge]

"Considered competitive"...until your record gets tanked. I (cynically, perhaps) consider that guidance just a way buperians try to sell tours people don't want. At this point in your career I'd take the job that fits your lifestyle, desires, and QOL. Your ticket is either punched or not punched, based on your first/second tour resume. When your record goes to the board, it'll be abnormal (no OOD or similar) and you'll be at the whim of the briefer to plead with the crowd, "no really, THIS is the new competitive billet, we swear."

IMO all the board will see is an on (or off) track record and judge accordingly. My experience is completely anecdotal, sure, but I think you still need to be EP/EP+production for that tough assignment to count as a tiebreaker (at best).

 

[DanMa1156]

"Considered competitive"...until your record gets tanked. I (cynically, perhaps) consider that guidance just a way buperians try to sell tours people don't want. At this point in your career I'd take the job that fits your lifestyle, desires, and QOL. Your ticket is either punched or not punched, based on your first/second tour resume. When your record goes to the board, it'll be abnormal (no OOD or similar) and you'll be at the whim of the briefer to plead with the crowd, "no really, THIS is the new competitive billet, we swear."

IMO all the board will see is an on (or off) track record and judge accordingly. My experience is completely anecdotal, sure, but I think you still need to be EP/EP+production for that tough assignment to count as a tiebreaker (at best).

Yeah, appreciate the advice. I'm not positive. What are the pros and cons in terms of lifestyle of a fleet staff vs. a traditional boat tour? I'm an HSC-CVW guy so I don't think I'm the typical P-3 guy who has never seen the boat - I worked with CAG OPS, Strike OPS, ATO, HEC, LEC, DESRON, etc., routinely on the ship, and I'm interested for follow on orders to a fleet staff for the overseas experience, but what's it like? Also, caveat, I'm going production but not on a strong FITREP; with an impending squadron shutdown, my high water FITREP explains that I would be a competitive EP, but due to unbelievably unlucky timing, I am not, so while I'm hopeful that holds water with the board, I am not convinced it does. Certainly I'll be writing a letter to the (future) boards to describe to them my circumstances endorsed by my Skipper.

 

[hscs]

Yeah, appreciate the advice. I'm not positive. What are the pros and cons in terms of lifestyle of a fleet staff vs. a traditional boat tour? I'm an HSC-CVW guy so I don't think I'm the typical P-3 guy who has never seen the boat - I worked with CAG OPS, Strike OPS, ATO, HEC, LEC, DESRON, etc., routinely on the ship, and I'm interested for follow on orders to a fleet staff for the overseas experience, but what's it like? Also, caveat, I'm going production but not on a strong FITREP; with an impending squadron shutdown, my high water FITREP explains that I would be a competitive EP, but due to unbelievably unlucky timing, I am not, so while I'm hopeful that holds water with the board, I am not convinced it does. Certainly I'll be writing a letter to the (future) boards to describe to them my circumstances endorsed by my Skipper.

At this point, I wouldn't worry about your 2nd sea tour. Best thing that you can do is to smoke the production tour. The fact that you were production will say something to the board. Also (maybe too late), but I would make sure that what you want to put in the letter to the board is in your FITREP - that way you don't have to keep submitting letters and make the briefer do extra work.

 

[robav8r]

"Buperians" . . . .

Spit out my coffee this morning reading this . . . nice !

 

[dodge]

Yeah, appreciate the advice. I'm not positive. What are the pros and cons in terms of lifestyle of a fleet staff vs. a traditional boat tour? I'm an HSC-CVW guy so I don't think I'm the typical P-3 guy who has never seen the boat - I worked with CAG OPS, Strike OPS, ATO, HEC, LEC, DESRON, etc., routinely on the ship, and I'm interested for follow on orders to a fleet staff for the overseas experience, but what's it like? Also, caveat, I'm going production but not on a strong FITREP; with an impending squadron shutdown, my high water FITREP explains that I would be a competitive EP, but due to unbelievably unlucky timing, I am not, so while I'm hopeful that holds water with the board, I am not convinced it does. Certainly I'll be writing a letter to the (future) boards to describe to them my circumstances endorsed by my Skipper.

I can't speak to a 7th fleet staff tour. The pros to the boat tour: you might learn a heck of a lot about how 'the navy' actually works and integrates to execute the mission (DESRON vs STRIKEGROUP vs AIRWING, etc) I.e. useful things to take into a DH tour to pass onto future newbs, or out over the water executing actual tactical crap. The cons: well, promotion-wise, The Navy doesn't care. As mentioned before, whether you rock your boat tour or skate by and ride out the storm on XBOX won't make too much of a difference at the board (unless you're real early on timing and can possibly compete for an EP that the board would actaully see...maaaybe)

As hscs said, worry about the production tour, finish as best you can, and see how the chips fall. You're obviously concerned about your ability to Stay Navy. I was in a similar timing situation. I chose the company line boat tour to boost my chances. My recommendation stands: don't. Instead, I'd start figuring out what it is you'd do with the rest of your life, possibly get a masters degree, network as a hobby (outside the navy circle) and prep your parachute/lifeboat. If you pick up O-4, great. If not, embrace the change.

If anything, the "sweeping changes" of DoD/Big Navy just highlights how little you control over your career at this point. It may sound like a downer, however realize The Navy ain't everything. It's got plenty of good and bad and it's certainly given me a lot, but at the end of the day think of the navy like any other institution and your exit like Shawshank Redemption. You want to be Andy Dufresne, not Brooks Hatlin. That's all attitude and something you completely control.

 

[Brett327]

Something to consider - The board doesn't necessarily need to see a competitive FITREP (or a FITREP at all) from you in order for your current billet to play well. Your billet selection is what plays and the board knows that you probably just got there. This is common knowledge for the ACSB, but perhaps not so much for the ADHSB. Post-DH people are told to be in their joint jobs by the time the ACSB meets, but that a FITREP from that job isn't necessary. This is how a lot of people (including myself) are able to swing through NWC prior to a joint tour, and still remain competitive.

 

[dodge]

I would agree, these details would play out more in a DH board where you're talking about more closely clustered data points among O-4 selects. But in that instance you're talking about guys (and gals) already selected for O-4.

Absolutely if you're think you're below glideslope and want to thread the needle through DH then rack up as many points as possible and hope.

And yes, the briefers and board will see where you are and what you're doing (in their 30 second snapshot). But, I would say many of those worried about staying in are worried about hurdling the O-4 board first. And for those guys, the board (it seems) considers billets kinda indifferently (aside from very specific, screened jobs like ANAV/AID, yadda yadda).

To me it seems at that point you are judged based on 1) your first tour rank, 2) what you did/ranked for your 2nd tour, and then they are mildly concerned with your third tour due to the multiple variables. (MP? Non production/Aide job? Good luck...)

The new normal has been self-inflicted wounds can bring those EP/RAG types below glideslope, but little to nothing brings that MP/non-production guys up (published bupers data bears this out). The merits of such a system are debatable but so far thats what I've seen.

Just so this is not a complete threadjack, tying back to SECDEFs changes, this will get muddied with the changes to up or out. I agree with the need to overhaul, more power should be given to 'firing' folks sooner.

If we (big navy) trust people to be CO's, we should be trusting them to identify deadweight early on (like any other hiring/firing manager).

Pull the trigger, like the rest of the workforce does, and cut your losses.

Similarly, allow specialists to specialize (i.e. fly) and 'straight shooters with upper management potential' to move up to CO. Google doesn't kick engineers out with 10+ years of experience because they'll never be a CEO.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Google doesn't kick engineers out with 10+ years of experience because they'll never be a CEO.

Say it with me....The Navy is not Google.

 

[hscs]

Similarly, allow specialists to specialize (i.e. fly) and 'straight shooters with upper management potential' to move up to CO. Google doesn't kick engineers out with 10+ years of experience because they'll never be a CEO.[/QUOTE]

Companies will show you the door if you are not creating value. So, if that guy at Google who just loves to code but doesn't want a C suite office is not helping move the ball forward than he goes.

The thing that we (Navy) will need to figure out is how to pick those folks that will add value consistently as a SME and not turn into the impediment to progress. Otherwise, we end up with the same problem as our staffs - long term GS staff types that simply slow roll initiatives and can't be shown the door.

 

[DanMa1156]

Best thing that you can do is to smoke the production tour. The fact that you were production will say something to the board. Also (maybe too late), but I would make sure that what you want to put in the letter to the board is in your FITREP - that way you don't have to keep submitting letters and make the briefer do extra work.

Yeah, my FITREP is pretty carefully worded and my departing one will point to the same verbiage (at least that's my hope), and my idea is that the letter to the board just forces them to look and read my FITREP and see that it matches what I'd write in the letter (squadron shutdown took away an expected FITREP reporting period, thus I'm departing on a not-so-great high water, but would otherwise have been considered competitive).

 

[Jim123]

DanMa, don't let them blow smoke. If the old man is telling you that "you're EP material but" and he (or she) didn't put it in writing and sign his name to it either in the rankings or in big, attention getting capital letters in the remarks, then that is some weaksauce leadership and you shouldn't fall for it.

If it is a case of your "bad timing" but he explicitly and sincerely spelled it out in the remarks, then you might thank the old man for doing the best he could with getting dealt a bad hand.

 

[nittany03]

Say it with me....The Navy is not Google.

So we can never learn anything from them ever, huh?

 

[IKE]

... Otherwise, we end up with the same problem as NAVAIR - long term GS staff types that simply slow roll initiatives and can't be shown the door.

FIFY.

 

[Recovering LSO]

So we can never learn anything from them ever, huh?

If that's what you want to infer from that post, knock yourself out - but that's not what I wrote.