SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes

[Randy Daytona]

Not really the same thing. Recent changes have made it harder to go through the IRR for years and years earning points towards retirement, the retirement rules themselves have not changed.



In my personal experience 'most bubbas' do not transition to the IRR from SELRES, I have certainly known quite a few to do so but definitely not a majority of folks that I have served with in SELRES.

As for making it difficult to get points it all has to do with what is good for the Navy, why should the Navy pay retirement for folks it gets very little value out of? Having a bunch of folks earn a retirement by merely taking some online course of varying value while not utilizing those folks in any meaningful way, IRR folks are very rarely mobilized in the Navy, doesn't really buy the Navy much at all. So the Navy decided to 'fix the glitch', as they probably should have years ago.

Of note, the Navy was apparently unique in allowing IRR folks to earn good retirement years with online courses, that was specifically noted in the final report by the Military Compensation and Retirement Modernization Commission and it appears the Navy took notice.



Yes and no, I am sympathetic to a degree because the rules have changed and that seems to have been handled poorly but the opportunity apparently will still exist to get at least a few good years (maximum of 3 apparently, again with the poor communication) towards retirement in the IRR by taking courses. That is a better deal than the other services from what I know and gives most a pretty reasonable amount of time to figure something out.



Are you saying that IRR to VTU isn't an option any more? Not from what I have seen.

We have several empty O-5 billets in my unit alone, just a few of the several hundred empty billets in the fleet concentration area I drill in. We are also opening sets in 'under-served' areas where there are plenty of folks but fewer billets. So while not ideal for everyone there are still billets out there if you are willing to make the commitment, you just have to decide whether it is worth it. Is a few years of traveling every few months (most units in fleet concentration areas allow for flex drill nowadays) with a pension? And if you are not willing to make the commitment, why should the Navy?

Takes the King's coin...

The majority of the guys I know left SelRes and went IRR. That said, it is interesting to hear the perspective of those in hardware units that are different from the SAU's I was used to.

As for the IRR itself, that brings a good question. Is it of any value to the Navy? Some would argue no. I would argue it has taken the place of SelRes as a strategic reserve (as SelRes has become an operational reserve). If something bad happens in a hurry - seemingly out of the blue - as in Pearl Harbor, Korea, 9/11 - my take is that it would be nice insurance policy to have. I do believe the Army and the Marines utilized the IRR over the last decade, the Navy chose not to. I also believe it offers a place for those with special skill sets to loiter in the event they are needed. The miniscule dollars those extra retirement points cost would seem to be small insurance policy but if the Navy thinks that it is not the case and IRR should be time limited, then come out and say so.

From what I have seen, billets tend to be plentiful until you reach O-6, then the SelRes billets reduce rapidly - especially if you civilian job dictates that you must flex drill. Oh well, that be the breaks - in the end, it was a fun ride.

 

[Flash]

Call a recruiter dude. Mine would not entertain the notion of going IRR to VTU. That's only one data point though, but it wasn't an option for me. maybe she was quota driven or something?

One thing I have learned from the reserves is to generally avoid the recruiters. An institutional defect to be sure but something that can be worked around.

IRR was sold to me as a chance to regroup, focus on family/job, and stay viable for re-entry/activation. Standby S-2 reserves was a step lower. Resigning commission at the bottom....I personally don't fault somebody who did 12(or whatever) years, then wanted to keep getting good years doing coloring books until his/her personal situation changed or it was retirement time.

I think the IRR still gives you a chance at 'regrouping' and other things but I also think 3 years is a pretty reasonable time limit just making sure you color between the lines. Eight years of doing that then qualifying for retirement? That is a bit too much for my taste, personally and as a taxpayer.

I get the "take the king's coin" argument, but it's frustrating for those guys who left •months• ago and are now under a different set of rules.

Again, they have approximately three years to figure it out, plenty of time.

 

[Flash]

...As for the IRR itself, that brings a good question. Is it of any value to the Navy? Some would argue no. I would argue it has taken the place of SelRes as a strategic reserve (as SelRes has become an operational reserve). If something bad happens in a hurry - seemingly out of the blue - as in Pearl Harbor, Korea, 9/11 - my take is that it would be nice insurance policy to have. I do believe the Army and the Marines utilized the IRR over the last decade, the Navy chose not to. I also believe it offers a place for those with special skill sets to loiter in the event they are needed. The miniscule dollars those extra retirement points cost would seem to be small insurance policy but if the Navy thinks that it is not the case, then come out and say so.

I think there is still great value in having the IRR as a strategic reserve, as you noted it has become, but the big difference between the Navy and the rest of the services when it comes to IRR is that we allow our folks to keep getting good years towards retirement while in the IRR while the others don't with few exceptions. It is a big enough exception that the Military Compensation and Retirement Modernization Commission noted the Navy's policy in their final report so I am thinking it isn't as minuscule a number as you might suppose.

So while everyone else has IRR folks on the books the Navy is the only one allowing them to earn retirement credit (unless of course they are mob'd).

From what I have seen, billets tend to be plentiful until you reach O-6, then the SelRes billets reduce rapidly - especially if you civilian job dictates that you must flex drill. Oh well, that be the breaks.

That is pretty much what I have seen as well, plenty of opportunity if you are willing to make the commitment.

 

[Flash]

We currently get bupkis until 60 unless deployed to a combat zone.

MOB or ADSW time anywhere counts towards the earlier retirement and not just in a war zone, so it doesn't matter if you did a year in Afghanistan or the Pentagon it still counts.

 

[vxc961]

I think there is still great value in having the IRR as a strategic reserve, as you noted it has become, but the big difference between the Navy and the rest of the services when it comes to IRR is that we allow our folks to keep getting good years towards retirement while in the IRR while the others don't with few exceptions. It is a big enough exception that the Military Compensation and Retirement Modernization Commission noted the Navy's policy in their final report so I am thinking it isn't as minuscule a number as you might suppose.

So while everyone else has IRR folks on the books the Navy is the only one allowing them to earn retirement credit (unless of course they are mob'd).



That is pretty much what I have seen as well, plenty of opportunity if you are willing to make the commitment.

Can you site some sources on the Navy being the only one allowing IRR folks to earn points? I've read the report too, but a 2-second google search showed other services allowing folks to earn points. Example: https://www.hrc.army.mil/Site/Assets/Directorate/staff/IRR_handbook.pdf. I tend to like facts more than examples, but my dad 18 of his 24 years in the Army IRR...he was doing it for pride and a sense of duty--I promise it wasn't just a retirement check for him.

I did three years IRR, then it took me two years to get back into SELRES. The way the "force shaping" of courses is going, it seems like it's tough to get TWO years out of approved courses...which change every three months. I'm all for the IRR being a place where guys can stay in hot standby for a while. If the Navy only wants them there three years, make *that* the policy. The rules shouldn't change once guys are there and it takes an act of God to get back in.

 

[Spekkio]

This just highlights the problem with pay whose justification is need-based rather than merit-based (or purely rank-based).

It's based on both. The military makes certain assumptions about your family size and housing needs based on your rank. The language in the instruction is something to the tune of you rate an allowance to afford a typical dwelling as a civilian in your income bracket would obtain. Thus an O-3 is assumed to rate a 3 bedroom house for his wife and 1 child with his ~$70k of base pay. If you are an outlier on either end (single or married with 4+ kids), you are going to find yourself either making bank or paying quite a bit out of pocket because the military assumes O-3 = needs 3 bedroom single family home.

The same goes for junior enlisted BAH if they get married - their BAH usually won't cover the typical rent in the area for a 2 BR apartment, let alone a 3BR house for a kid or two.

And this really is the crux here - all these issues of servicemembers pocketing extra allowances are the people on the fringes, and is mostly due to enough bitching about the discrepancy between single and dependant BAH that they are virtually the same now. If you fit the mold of what the military assumes about your family size based on rank, it becomes very hard to pocket a substantial amount of extra BAH.

 

[nittany03]

I would argue it has taken the place of SelRes as a strategic reserve (as SelRes has become an operational reserve). If something bad happens in a hurry - seemingly out of the blue - as in Pearl Harbor, Korea, 9/11 - my take is that it would be nice insurance policy to have.

Don't disagree. And as someone with a MOB in the hopper, I'm glad I get another chance to play in the operational world; don't get me wrong. Beats flying a civilian desk. But I do wonder two things. First, does this speak more to DoD's using the RC to avoid making hard personnel choices with the AC? Second, how much of the IRR would actually show up AND be mobilizable if called up? And I'm not just talking about the IRR-VTU; we know those folks are probably good to go. I'm talking the ASP who, though they haven't gone S1 or S2, may or may not be in standards and may or may not even understand that they're still recallable. If their address is even still current. How many Joe Blows in the IRR-ASP are full-up rounds, and how many said "I did my 4 years; FTN," never updated their recall, went to college, got fat, and smoked a big fat one last weekend? I've never dealt with IRR readiness, so I have no clue.

 

[Flash]

Can you site some sources on the Navy being the only one allowing IRR folks to earn points? I've read the report too, but a 2-second google search showed other services allowing folks to earn points. Example: https://www.hrc.army.mil/Site/Assets/Directorate/staff/IRR_handbook.pdf. I tend to like facts more than examples, but my dad 18 of his 24 years in the Army IRR...he was doing it for pride and a sense of duty--I promise it wasn't just a retirement check for him.

I was incorrect, thanks for pointing to the Army info. After working with reservists of all stripes though I had not yet heard that policy in other services and it did not seem to be common practice (or practiced at all on a a large scale) like it it is in the Navy.

And yes, there are some people that serve in the IRR out of sense of service but there are quite others who do it only to get their while they can, you don't have to look very far to find examples of that,.

I did three years IRR, then it took me two years to get back into SELRES. The way the "force shaping" of courses is going, it seems like it's tough to get TWO years out of approved courses...which change every three months. I'm all for the IRR being a place where guys can stay in hot standby for a while. If the Navy only wants them there three years, make *that* the policy. The rules shouldn't change once guys are there and it takes an act of God to get back in.

The Navy can do a lot better than they have done recently with their new IRR policies, implementing them in practice before publishing policy is pretty dumb. Unfortunately that sort of policy making seems to be standard with the Navy Reserve as a whole. And yes, if the intention was to make courses good for only making 3 good years in the IRR they should state that officially.

But there are avenues to get back in to a VTU or even drilling status if one wants, and I don't think it will be as hard as it was for you for most of them. But the policy had to change sooner or later and while it may not be 'fair' on a practical level it would almost impossible to 'grandfather' folks in.

 

[vxc961]

I was incorrect, thanks for pointing to the Army info. After working with reservists of all stripes though I had not yet heard that policy in other services and it did not seem to be common practice (or practiced at all on a a large scale) like it it is in the Navy.

And yes, there are some people that serve in the IRR out of sense of service but there are quite others who do it only to get their while they can, you don't have to look very far to find examples of that,.



The Navy can do a lot better than they have done recently with their new IRR policies, implementing them in practice before publishing policy is pretty dumb. Unfortunately that sort of policy making seems to be standard with the Navy Reserve as a whole. And yes, if the intention was to make courses good for only making 3 good years in the IRR they should state that officially.

But there are avenues to get back in to a VTU or even drilling status if one wants, and I don't think it will be as hard as it was for you for most of them. But the policy had to change sooner or later and while it may not be 'fair' on a practical level it would almost impossible to 'grandfather' folks in.

Thanks Flash...btw, in re-reading my post, I came off much more pissy than I meant to be--I apologize.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Don't disagree. And as someone with a MOB in the hopper, I'm glad I get another chance to play in the operational world; don''t get me wrong. Beats flying a civilian desk. But I do wonder two things. First, does this speak more to DoD's using the RC to avoid making hard personnel choices with the AC? Second, how much of the IRR would actually show up AND be mobilizable if called up? And I'm not just talking about the IRR-VTU; we know those folks are probably good to go. I'm talking the ASP who, though they haven't gone S1 or S2, may or may not be in standards and may or may not even understand that they're still recallable. If their address is even still current. How many Joe Blows in the IRR-ASP are full-up rounds, and how many said "I did my 4 years; FTN," never updated their recall, went to college, got fat, and smoked a big fat one last weekend? I've never dealt with IRR readiness, so I have no clue.

I also did a good amount of time overseas (before 2008 so unfortunately none of it counts towards reducing retirement age) and appreciate the perspective it gave me. It does seem that DoD uses the RC to simply save money from having an appropriate sized active duty. It is amazing to think how much we have shrunk since the cold war.

As for the motivation for a recall, hmmm, I honestly think it depends. With something like the Russians coming through the Fulda Gap (dating myself) - where no kidding it is a national emergency - people would be lining up to serve. However to be a prison camp admin officer in U-pick-a-stan or truck convoy director in outer bumf*** as a cost savings mechanism instead of using active duty - not so much.

 

[Gatordev]

The majority of the guys I know left SelRes and went IRR. That said, it is interesting to hear the perspective of those in hardware units that are different from the SAU's I was used to.

Come on, now, let's be honest. How many of the majority of guys went IRR because there "weren't any billets" and how many went IRR because there weren't any flying billets? And I understand you may not know the answer, but with the number of unfilled O-5 and O-6 billets available on the APPLY sheet in fleet concentration areas, I have a hard time believing there aren't/weren't billets. Now, were they attractive billets? Meh, probably not, especially for someone who has been in the cockpit for that long and/or was a CO, but there are still opportunities out there, but many don't allow the job satisfaction while being away from family that a SAU gig would.

 

[vxc961]

Don't disagree. And as someone with a MOB in the hopper, I'm glad I get another chance to play in the operational world; don't get me wrong. Beats flying a civilian desk. But I do wonder two things. First, does this speak more to DoD's using the RC to avoid making hard personnel choices with the AC? Second, how much of the IRR would actually show up AND be mobilizable if called up? And I'm not just talking about the IRR-VTU; we know those folks are probably good to go. I'm talking the ASP who, though they haven't gone S1 or S2, may or may not be in standards and may or may not even understand that they're still recallable. If their address is even still current. How many Joe Blows in the IRR-ASP are full-up rounds, and how many said "I did my 4 years; FTN," never updated their recall, went to college, got fat, and smoked a big fat one last weekend? I've never dealt with IRR readiness, so I have no clue.

-I think you're right that 95% of the IRR is probably worthless. In doing courses for years, I always thought that it was the actual effort of doing those things that demonstrated my motivation to stay connected, not that I was actually learning something from "Naval Space Systems" or whatever. How much do people really get from their Human Trafficking GMT every year? Anybody who thinks IRR guys are just doing coloring books for a retirement check should try to get 35 points himself.

For me, I was able to stay viable in the IRR for 5-years, then go back to SELRES when work/family conditions were better. I was lucky, but there were plenty who had the same plan, or even just wanted to coast after 15 years, and then the rules were changed. To me, going IRR for a bit is a lot better than staying SELRES but suddenly coming up with migraines or PTSD once you're mobilized to GTMO for an Army job. And I see the frustration when the Navy says "Here are all these ways to get points in the IRR", but then with just *weeks* notice says "we're tired of guys getting retirements for doing nothing but worthless courses, so we're clamping down." I was already SELRES, but I actually called both LCDR Luna and his Chief (I forget his name) at CNRF and asked for the statistics that drove that decision--neither could respond intelligently, which leads me to believe it's somebody's (O-6+) perception, (without any real data behind it) that the fat slobs you refer to were getting "free" retirements off Uncle Sugar. I think it's insulting to everyone who beyond their initial MSO, and I actually support many of the retirement changes that turn it from a 20-year cliff to a 20-year slope.

 

[SynixMan]

On the topic of mil-mil double BAH, I used to think it was BS double-dipping, but I've come around on it. BAH is part of your personal compensation package and helps offset the crazy living costs in the fleet concentration areas on the coasts. You shouldn't be punished for marry the "wrong person". I cannot imagine that category is so large that it's worth the goodwill of cutting. All of these cost cutting measures to member compensation make me want to punch a baby when I think about them in comparison to our broken acquisition system.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Front page of Navy Times online today:



If you don't see how the proposed BAH cut is at odds with this, you've not really been paying attention.

Here's another hypothetical: an officer is married to a successful consultant who can work from home and travel, and bring down $200k/year. Why does the Navy give this guy ANY BAH. He married a successful spouse and he "clearly doesn't need" the money so we should take away that allowance.

I think we would all tend to agree that this hypothetical is ridiculous and probably illegal, but, again, since we're trespassing into the realm of stupid, let's decide where to draw the line? For those (around the blogosphere, not just here) who take some sanctimonious stance against mil-mil couples drawing BAH, let me take a look at YOUR wife's W-2 and then we can have a discussion of whether or not YOU need BAH. I'm gonna guess we could tap into a whole new pot of savings, right?

 

[nittany03]

Words

There's way more hate and discontent getting read into that post than I intended to put there. I fully understand that people may need to go IRR for a while due to life circumstances. That doesn't make them shitbags. Nowhere in my post am I intending to imply that these people are "fat slobs." My point about Joe Blow ASP Guy was deliberately hyperbolic to get at the question I was raising. To wit: I'm curious how may people we have on the books in the ASP that either have no intention of returning, or flat out don't know they're IN the ASP.

I understand the bait-and-switch aspect of changing the correspondence courses rubs some people the wrong way. There's an argument to be made for that. But you pays your money and you takes your chances. If you choose not to participate in SELRES for a long enough stretch, you run the risk of not getting good years.