Sen. Schumer gas for electric car trade in program?

[ChuckMK23]

@Griz882 to answer your question, not yet. The EV road use taxes that have been imposed to date are largely political at this point - and don't reflect the true "fair use" tax that would have been paid by an ICE vehicle that consumed gas or diesel. Many of the respective state legislators have received a lot of push back. Ohio is $200/year and is expected to be reduced to half that.

States are throwing a variety of schemes against the wall and seeing what sticks. This conversation between constituents and lawmakers is far from over.

 

[Swanee]

I think I asked my question poorly. I understand the basic cost savings, I am asking about the additional tax that EVs have to pay in some 30 states to make up for lost revenue on the gas tax (Virginia for example). Do those taxes push your electric vs gas calculations in a different direction?

While I'm still an SCRA FL tax refugee I see zero increase in my annual cost. The 2010 Subaru Outback that I just donated to Ronald McDonald House has 180,000 miles on it. However the State of Florida says it has 14,000 and some change. They don't make me certify an annual usage and I don't see how they can effectively make me do so while I'm out of state.

So I'm a bad example for anyone not in my situation.

 

[ABMD]

That's a great question. I'm also curious about the maintenance costs of an EV versus a combustion engine car over its lifetime.

From what I've read, EV batteries can be expected to last around 10 years? Is it anticipated that the replacement cost of those batteries will be alot cheaper in the future? And how does that replacement cost compare to the cost of getting regular oil changes and new air filters on a non EV engine that can last much longer? I genuinely have no clue...

Asking for a guy that likes to hump a nickel and maintain my legacy platform for as long as possible. ?

Here is my experience in my Prius for a hybrid battery (not the same as an EV battery). At 150k miles, I had to replace my hybrid battery. Toyota wanted $5k for a new factory battery. I was able to find a company that specializes in replacement hybrid batteries with a warranty that matched what Toyota offered. Brand new battery pack cost me just under $2,500 (installed) with a 4yr unlimited mileage warranty. That same battery has lasted over 150k miles (Prius has well over 300k miles now).

I just checked, and prices haven't changed since I bought my battery.

 

[Swanee]

Update on damage from previous post:

$4589.22 is the estimate. I need a new liftgate, new body parts and covers, and what's interesting is that I need a couple of new carbon fiber impact bars that protect the electric motors and the battery. They did their job, as there wasn't any "expensive" (estimators word, not mine) damage.

Also said that Hyundai parts are in good order, so they'll be ready to work on my car Sept 12 (Yeah, that's still 3 weeks). I asked what companies are having the hardest time with parts- Tesla, Audi, Volvo, BMW, and KIA are apparently really hard to come by and have months long waiting lists.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Update on damage from previous post:

$4589.22 is the estimate. I need a new liftgate, new body parts and covers, and what's interesting is that I need a couple of new carbon fiber impact bars that protect the electric motors and the battery. They did their job, as there wasn't any "expensive" (estimators word, not mine) damage.

Also said that Hyundai parts are in good order, so they'll be ready to work on my car Sept 12 (Yeah, that's still 3 weeks). I asked what companies are having the hardest time with parts- Tesla, Audi, Volvo, BMW, and KIA are apparently really hard to come by and have months long waiting lists.

3 weeks isn't bad, many of the body shops around me are 4 months out for repairs, some are longer. When we had to have an estimate done one one of our cars around January of this year one of the chain body shops wouldn't even see us for an estimate for 6-8 weeks!

 

[SynixMan]

I think I asked my question poorly. I understand the basic cost savings, I am asking about the additional tax that EVs have to pay in some 30 states to make up for lost revenue on the gas tax (Virginia for example). Do those taxes push your electric vs gas calculations in a different direction?

At some point I expect a VMT (vehicle miles traveled) at the state level with registration for EVs. No free rides. Gas taxes are regressive but they are a significant revenue source that goes directly back to road/infrastructure maintenance. I’m unsure how to get Federal Govt will recoup the loss on gas taxes. Revenue share from the states?

 

[number9]

At some point I expect a VMT (vehicle miles traveled) at the state level with registration for EVs. No free rides. Gas taxes are regressive but they are a significant revenue source that goes directly back to road/infrastructure maintenance. I’m unsure how to get Federal Govt will recoup the loss on gas taxes. Revenue share from the states?

We're going to apply this to all vehicles, right? And apply it by vehicle weight, right? Because weight is what damages roads...

 

[IKE]

We're going to apply this to all vehicles, right? And apply it by vehicle weight, right? Because weight is what damages roads...

Is it weight or weight-per-wheel?

 

[Swanee]

At some point I expect a VMT (vehicle miles traveled) at the state level with registration for EVs. No free rides. Gas taxes are regressive but they are a significant revenue source that goes directly back to road/infrastructure maintenance. I’m unsure how to get Federal Govt will recoup the loss on gas taxes. Revenue share from the states?

Caveat all of this to say that around 1% of all vehicles on the road are electric. Throw in hybrids and that number doesn't increase much. EV sales are sitting at 3% of all cars, Hybrids are getting more popular with around 5%. So we're not talking about a lot miles driven that used to be gallons bought. Just by the numbers we're looking at a 1 to 2 percent loss in total revenue from fuel taxes compared to a time there were no electric or hybrid cars on the road. So the year to year loss is probably within the margins of error.

But I do agree with you that we'll have to figure out how and where to source income to fund the roads as more and more people buy hybrid and electric cars.

I don't see a mileage tax as a viable solution, not unless you do it for every car on the road. Not with how many people register a vehicle in one place but live/work/do most of their driving in another. As it stood before I bought an EV, when I bought fuel the taxes were going to the state of Michigan (and some to the fed). But now, a mileage tax (if Florida could figure out a way to certify my mileage every time I renewed my registration) would see all of that money going to Florida. That's less than ideal. (This also applies to a lot more folks than military- college kids, snow birds, folks who live in one state but work/drive to another, and those folks who travel extensively for a living).


I can see an added tax on out-in-town EV chargers as an option. Though as Hybrid cars drive up fuel efficiency we're going to have to figure out how to get them to pay their share- as they're not plugging into public chargers and they aren't using much fuel.

Now with an EV and a Hybrid the wife and I are using 20% of the fuel we used to, and are therefore paying 20% of the road taxes that we used to for the same amount of driving. So on the micro scale my household is paying significantly less than it was 2 years ago when we both had traditional ICE vehicles.

 

[ABMD]

Caveat all of this to say that around 1% of all vehicles on the road are electric. Throw in hybrids and that number doesn't increase much. EV sales are sitting at 3% of all cars, Hybrids are getting more popular with around 5%. So we're not talking about a lot miles driven that used to be gallons bought. Just by the numbers we're looking at a 1 to 2 percent loss in total revenue from fuel taxes compared to a time there were no electric or hybrid cars on the road. So the year to year loss is probably within the margins of error.

But I do agree with you that we'll have to figure out how and where to source income to fund the roads as more and more people buy hybrid and electric cars.

I don't see a mileage tax as a viable solution, not unless you do it for every car on the road. Not with how many people register a vehicle in one place but live/work/do most of their driving in another. As it stood before I bought an EV, when I bought fuel I know that the taxes are going to the state of Michigan (and some to the fed). But now, a mileage tax (if Florida could figure out a way to certify my mileage every time I renewed my registration) would see all of that money going to Florida. That's less than ideal. (This also applies to a lot more folks than military- college kids, snow birds, folks who live in one state but work/drive to another, and those folks who travel extensively for a living).


I can see an added tax on out-in-town EV chargers as an option. Though as Hybrid cars drive up fuel efficiency we're going to have to figure out how to get them to pay their share- as they're not plugging into public chargers and they aren't using much fuel.

Now with an EV and a Hybrid the wife and I are using 20% of the fuel we used to, and are therefore paying 20% of the road taxes that we used to for the same amount of driving. So on the micro scale my household is paying significantly less than it was 2 years ago when we both had traditional ICE vehicles.

States could simply add a toll to the existing roads/highways. Everyone who uses that road pays regardless of what fuel they use to power the vehicle.

 

[ChuckMK23]

States could simply add a toll to the existing roads/highways. Everyone who uses that road pays regardless of what fuel they use to power the vehicle.

You are describing Dallas-Ft Worth today!

 

[Swanee]

States could simply add a toll to the existing roads/highways. Everyone who uses that road pays regardless of what fuel they use to power the vehicle.

That's a lot of additional infrastructure and overhead cost that will probably work well enough for interstate and major city/metro area travel. But I don't think people would go for getting a bill every month to pay for the roads "that used to be free". What happens to those places that don't really have an interstate through their county to charge taxes to?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Caveat all of this to say that around 1% of all vehicles on the road are electric. Throw in hybrids and that number doesn't increase much. EV sales are sitting at 3% of all cars, Hybrids are getting more popular with around 5%. So we're not talking about a lot miles driven that used to be gallons bought. Just by the numbers we're looking at a 1 to 2 percent loss in total revenue from fuel taxes compared to a time there were no electric or hybrid cars on the road. So the year to year loss is probably within the margins of error.

But I do agree with you that we'll have to figure out how and where to source income to fund the roads as more and more people buy hybrid and electric cars.

I don't see a mileage tax as a viable solution, not unless you do it for every car on the road. Not with how many people register a vehicle in one place but live/work/do most of their driving in another. As it stood before I bought an EV, when I bought fuel the taxes were going to the state of Michigan (and some to the fed). But now, a mileage tax (if Florida could figure out a way to certify my mileage every time I renewed my registration) would see all of that money going to Florida. That's less than ideal. (This also applies to a lot more folks than military- college kids, snow birds, folks who live in one state but work/drive to another, and those folks who travel extensively for a living).


I can see an added tax on out-in-town EV chargers as an option. Though as Hybrid cars drive up fuel efficiency we're going to have to figure out how to get them to pay their share- as they're not plugging into public chargers and they aren't using much fuel.

Now with an EV and a Hybrid the wife and I are using 20% of the fuel we used to, and are therefore paying 20% of the road taxes that we used to for the same amount of driving. So on the micro scale my household is paying significantly less than it was 2 years ago when we both had traditional ICE vehicles.

Some states do or did a registration cost based on the value of the vehicle.

 

[ABMD]

That's a lot of additional infrastructure and overhead cost that will probably work well enough for interstate and major city/metro area travel. But I don't think people would go for getting a bill every month to pay for the roads "that used to be free". What happens to those places that don't really have an interstate through their county to charge taxes to?

All it requires are a few camera at strategic locations. They do this in the DMV now. MD removed all their infrastructure-heavy toll plazas and now rely on cameras to scan tags and send toll invoices, it's called "Video Tolling". For example, a recent trip through PA resulted in a toll invoice in the mail a few weeks later. All they need to do is identify a section of road(s) with high volume and place the cameras at intersections or stretches of the road. Easy day for the DoT.

I can see the State or Fed adding a tax to (public) charging stations, just like they do for gas. As for charging at home, utility rates aren't static. As utilities build out the charging station networks (some utilities are doing this and not waiting for private companies to do it) that cost is passed to the consumer in the form of higher ancillary charges.

 

[Swanee]

All it requires are a few camera at strategic locations. They do this in the DMV now. MD removed all their infrastructure-heavy toll plazas and now rely on cameras to scan tags and send toll invoices, it's called "Video Tolling". For example, a recent trip through PA resulted in a toll invoice in the mail a few weeks later. All they need to do is identify a section of road(s) with high volume and place the cameras at intersections or stretches of the road. Easy day for the DoT.

I can see the State or Fed adding a tax to (public) charging stations, just like they do for gas. As for charging at home, utility rates aren't static. As utilities build out the charging station networks (some utilities are doing this and not waiting for private companies to do it) that cost is passed to the consumer in the form of higher ancillary charges.

Yeah, I know about pay by plate. It's expensive, additional fees are tacked on if you don't have an easy pass, you have to hire a lot of people to collect said tolls and maintain the equipment. That adds a large expense- one that is usually contracted out at such a high rate that the government doesn't see much of the revenue, if any at all. In some instances it costs the government more in contraxt fees than what they take in (Chicago and Phoenix have both experienced this). Again, I don't think people will go for it outside of major highways and bridges and tunnels.

The idea that you're going to charge someone to drive on a small two lane county road, or down mainstreet, isn't going to work.