Ship Photo of the Day

[Griz882]

What use would ospreys be on the Izumo? They’re big, and other that potentially being a marginal refueler what’s the point? Weren’t the ships originally meant to be anti submarine helicopter platforms?

Duh....for fighting Godzilla.

 

[Randy Daytona]

What use would ospreys be on the Izumo? They’re big, and other that potentially being a marginal refueler what’s the point? Weren’t the ships originally meant to be anti submarine helicopter platforms?

The Osprey is a very versatile platform, and in this aspect, I would think think the tanker version might be of some utility. Its not the best option, but its one that works from a ship without catapults.

As for originally being anti-submarine helicopter platforms, the Japanese already have two 650 ft helicopter carriers. Moving up to 800+ ft - but no well deck - seems like they were planning on further developing these ships into jump carriers all along. As I mentioned earlier, I will be curious to see how this plays out.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

The Osprey is a very versatile platform, and in this aspect, I would think think the tanker version might be of some utility. Its not the best option, but its one that works from a ship without catapults.

As for originally being anti-submarine helicopter platforms, the Japanese already have two 650 ft helicopter carriers. Moving up to 800+ ft - but no well deck - seems like they were planning on further developing these ships into jump carriers all along. As I mentioned earlier, I will be curious to see how this plays out.

Versatile? Sure. But for what specifically? Can it do overwater SAR with that kind of rotor wash? They don’t need COD or assault support. So maybe refueling and...

 

[Randy Daytona]

Versatile? Sure. But for what specifically? Can it do overwater SAR with that kind of rotor wash? They don’t need COD or assault support. So maybe refueling and...

An AEW capability for a STOVL carrier? The photo below gives some perspective on Japan's 2 helicopter carrier classes compared to the Nimitz.

https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/why-the-us-gator-navy-needs-the-ev-22/

 

[nittany03]

An AEW capability for a STOVL carrier?

TACC-Airborne?

 

[Pags]

TACC-Airborne?

I can hear the benny hill music now ((pretty much all of L-class life is improved if you imagine a constantly running yakkety sax soundtrack). They'd never get off the deck or if they did they'd quickly crash back in to the ship killing everyone. But hey itd take at least 5 O-4s and an O-5 to fuck away.

 

[Jim123]

I can hear the benny hill music now ((pretty much all of L-class life is improved if you imagine a constantly running yakkety sax soundtrack).

That song and the Three Dog Night one that starts with the circus music are good for almost everything that happens on deployment.

 

[Griz882]

I’ll use the first day of 2019 to introduce the first helicopter carrier in the US Navy, the USS Thetis Bay, CVHA-1. She started life in WWII as an escort carrier (CVE-90) but saw little action. Once the Navy and Marines recognized the importance of the helicopter she was modified as a CVHA. Later she was redesignated as an LPH. The idea of letting the rotor guys have their own carrier probably scared the tail hook guys.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

The idea of letting the rotor guys have their own carrier probably scared the tail hook guys.

That's how to do so with no Tailhook envy:
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Фай...lightdeck_cruiser,_starboard_quarter_view.jpg

The only problem is for a bridge watch: very wide stern and so narrow "pointy end" made her uncontrolled in heavy seas...

 

[Flash]

An AEW capability for a STOVL carrier? The photo below gives some perspective on Japan's 2 helicopter carrier classes compared to the Nimitz.

https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/why-the-us-gator-navy-needs-the-ev-22/

It's painful that I have to point out the blatantly obvious but the size of the flight deck is one of only many factors in determining how many aircraft a ship can operate. What about the hangar, fuel, storage and ordnance capacity?

All of us here know the London Naval Treaty caused problems with ship design as the engineers tried to do too much - the Mogami class was not alone. That said, the Japanese thought about the future when designing those ships and I would not be surprised if the Izumo class was the same.

Yet they still screwed it up, which is a big part of the reason why I think the idea of operating a viable air group off the DDH's is more fantasy than realism right now.

If Japan goes through with this, it will be interesting to see what complement of aircraft are carried. I still suspect substantially more than 6 to 8 F-35's, possibly in conjunction with some V-22s - we will see in a few year's time.

And that highlights a huge gap in these supposed plans, the lack of a supporting AEW aircraft. While random pundits can talk about making an EV-22 turning that into a reality is something completely different, and also very expensive. A more realistic option would be an AEW version of the AW101, which the Brits and Italians both have, but that again would cost money and time and would still provide limited utility against the overwhelming force the Chinese could bring to bear on the ship.

 

[Randy Daytona]

It's painful that I have to point out the blatantly obvious but the size of the flight deck is one of only many factors in determining how many aircraft a ship can operate. What about the hangar, fuel, storage and ordnance capacity?

And that highlights a huge gap in these supposed plans, the lack of a supporting AEW aircraft. While random pundits can talk about making an EV-22 turning that into a reality is something completely different, and also very expensive. A more realistic option would be an AEW version of the AW101, which the Brits and Italians both have, but that again would cost money and time and would still provide limited utility against the overwhelming force the Chinese could bring to bear on the ship.

You raise legitimate questions, however an estimate of its capabilities in those aspects comes from seeing how it compares to other jump carriers. From CIMSEC... With an impressive length of 248 meters and a beam of 38 meters, the vessel is larger than short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) carriers operating in the Spanish and Italian navies. Likewise, its fully-loaded displacement of 24,000 tonnes (some sources states 27,000 tons) and 7.3 meter draft put the Izumo class in a category similar to that of the Invincible class carriers commissioned by the Royal Navy. (Note: The Spanish Juan Carlos I has a well deck that the Izumo does not. The Italian Cavour is listed as having room for 10 jets in its hangar and 6 more on the deck. The 22,000 ton HMS Invincible operated 10 Sea Kings and 8 Harriers, the 28,000 ton Centaur class Hermes operated 26 Harriers and 10 Sea Kings during the Falklands.)

Also, there is the design change from Japan's previous helicopter carriers.

the potential for operating STOVL aircraft from these vessels is high. For instance, in addition to greater size, major alterations were made to the design of the flight deck from Japan’s previous Hyuga class of helicopter destroyers. The new Izumos remove obstacles from the flight deck and rearrange equipment that would prevent the launch and recovery of fixed-wing aircraft. The CIWS system mounted on the foredeck of the Hyuga class has been moved well to the side, opening up the much needed space necessary for fixed-wing operations. Moreover, the aft vertical launch silo has also been removed, allowing for greater ease of aircraft recovery. By and large, changes such as these are critical for allowing the vessel to operate fixed-wing aircraft.

http://cimsec.org/japans-izumo-class-helicopter-destroyer-aircraft-carrier-disguise/24130

All good stuff but are the decks and elevators strong enough? Is there enough hangar space? Enough weapons storage space? Frankly I don't know but I certainly haven't seen answers yet and you can't tell by merely looking at the ships, that is an amateur's analysis. That is even before they commit to the HUGE outlay necessary to buy, staff and equip a legitimate carrier jet force. Then they have to figure out what they are actually going to do with them, neither the ROKN or JMSDF is an expeditionary force or aspire to be one which is why countries usually have jet-equipped carriers.

As for the hangars and elevators, from the USNI blog.

the class’s hangar and elevators were built to dimensions that could accommodate the F-35B and the MV-22 Osprey—Japan already has MV-22s on order. Even the class’s flight deck can supposedly withstand the heat and pressure generated by the F-35’s scorching exhaust. The official also says the carriers’ deck would likely be modified with a ski-jump if the F-35B were acquired.

https://blog.usni.org/posts/2018/02/28/like-the-izumo-class-just-wait-for-the-follow-on-class

Well, there is this new order. Another 105 F-35's, of which it is estimated 42 will be the STOVL F-35B. As for the ability for the V-22 to function as an AEW platform, perhaps Phrogdriver can provide some info.

Japan commits to purchase 105 additional F-35 aircraft

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/japan-commits-to-purchase-105-additional-f-35-aircraft/

 

[Randy Daytona]

MSS-1, Harry L. Glucksman was a converted Liberty ship. ...was intended to test the feasibility of using an "unsinkable" ship to produce by its own hull and special magnetic coils ringing the main deck the magnetic and pressure signature of a larger ship.[6] MSS-1, displacing nearly 15,000 tons, was filled with about 140,000 cubic feet (3,964.4 m3) of styrofoam and all compartments below the waterline were flooded for ballast.[6] Propulsion was by five inboard/outboard diesel engines to minimize risk of loss of propulsion from explosions.

Length: 441 ft, Beam: 56 ft, Displacement: 11,500 tons
Commissioned: 18 March 1944, Decommissioned: 15 March 1973
Engines: 5 inboard -outboard diesels mounted above the waterline

Gulf of Mexico conducting shock tests

 

[Randy Daytona]

USS Thetis Bay. First CVE-90, then CVHA-1, then LPH-6 was a Casablanca class escort carrier. In WW2, she made multiple trips ferrying aircraft to Hawaii and various islands but did not see combat. It was noted earlier that CVE stood for combustible, vulnerable and expendable and the Thetis Bay went into the reserve fleet in 1946; however the Marines were experimenting with the new strategy of vertical envelopment and the Thetis Bay was repurposed into the first Assault Helicopter Carrier (CVHA). (Roughly a dozen more escort carriers were similarly repurposed.) She was later renamed LPH-6, with notable deployments to Taiwan for hurricane relief with an embarked Marine helicopter squadron and then deployed again for the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Length: 512 ft, Beam (waterline) 65 ft, (flight deck) 105 ft, displacement: 10,400 tons.
9,000 horsepower feeding 2 shafts gave 19 knots.
Up to 28 helicopters.

USS Thetis Bay (CVE-90) enroute to NAS Alameda, California, with a deckload of war-weary planes on 8 July 1944. The planes visible on deck are eight Consolidated PBY Catalina flying boats, 18 Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters, and a Grumman J2F Duck amphibious biplane

Thetis Bay in August 1944 in her original configuration.

USS Thetis Bay (CVE-90) in San Francisco Bay, 12 December 1945, completing a Magic Carpet trip from the Pacific Theater.

USS Thetis Bay (CVHA-1) in San Francisco Bay during builders trials. Thetis Bay was the U.S. Navy’s first helicopter assault carrier. She exploited the improved helicopters to be used by the U.S. Marine Corps in amphibious landing operations. Thetis Bay could carry 20 HR2S to 22-passenger Sikorsky helicopters or 40 HRS 10-passenger Sikorsky helicopters. Thetis Bay has a complement of 700 officers and men Navy crew and approximately 1,000 U.S. Marine troops. Photograph released 2 October 1956

USS Thetis Bay (CVHA-1) dockside at Naval Shipyard Hunters Point, San Francisco, CA., circa July 1956. The HUP-2 helicopter taking off was probably performing flight deck tests for the newly converted helicopter carrier.

USS Thetis Bay (CVHA-1) underway, circa 1955-56.

USS Thetis Bay (LPH-6) off Luzon, Philippine Islands,February. 1958, during vertical envelopment exercises with Marine Corps Test Unit 1

USS Thetis Bay (LPH-6), underway, circa 1979, location unknown. Note her complement of Sikorsky HRS troop-carrying helicopters aft and some of her crew lined up on deck.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Wreck of First Japanese Battleship Sunk By U.S. Navy in WWII Found
https://news.usni.org/2019/02/06/40942

The second of four Kongo class battlecruisers, the Hiei was rebuilt in 1937 as a fast battleship, adding both armor and length. At the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, she was attacked at (literally) point blank range by several US destroyers and hit at close range by the heavy cruiser USS San Francisco. With her steering gear disabled, she was sunk shortly afterwards by US aircraft.

Length: 728 ft, Beam: 101 ft, Displacement: 36,600 tons
8 boilers feeding 4 shafts gave 30+ knots

Main armament: 8 (4x2) 14"/45cal guns firing 1,500 lbs shells, 16 (8x2) 6" secondaries, 8 (8x1) 5" dual purpose, multiple AA guns
Armor: Main belt: 8", turrets: 10 ", deck: 4"

Commissioned: 4 August 1914, Sunk: 14 November 1942

Hiei undergoing full power trials off Tukugewan following her second reconstruction, December 1939

Hiei in Tokyo Bay, 11 July 1942

A damaged Hiei, trailing oil, is attacked by US Army B-17s, 13 November 1942

 

[AIRMMCPORET]

Love this thread.?

Where do you get most of your information from Randy?