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Ship Photo of the Day

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The problem with these kind of proposals - and from a quick read of the WSJ article, this one isn't an exception - is that they argue the merits of buying this or that, while ignoring all the additional logistics, training, manning, and support "tail" that goes along with procuring fundamentally weapon systems. The author also makes the error of assuming that the current SSN production rate represents the maximum capacity of the yards, rather than the result of spreading out production across multiple FY budgets.

The Navy could buy conventional boats off of foreign yards. It’d be a political shitshow but it’s technically feasible. Then it’d have to invest the considerable capital to build and man additional training and support facilities, and retrain a significant portion of the sub force to operate and maintain them. And the additional parts train. And presumably you’d have to outsource major repair availabilities to foreign yards since US yards aren’t set up to do it - another political shit show and impractical besides. And where do we get all these extra sailors to man them? I don’t imagine the sub force has a dozen boats’ worth of extra sailor just polishing brass. And where do we get the instructors and tech reps? The last USN guys who worked on conventional boats are long gone, and those were totally different designs and several generations of technology back anyway.

Other than that, yeah. Great idea so long as you don’t have to figure out how to actually do it, or pay for it. It requires Big Navy to somehow find all that extra shipbuilding (procurement would still come out of the build budget) and OMN funding, and the political appetite in Congress to spend it all on subs built in foreign yards. Or, they could instead spend it on accelerating SSN construction. Much more practical and politically palatable than this Rube Goldberg “solution.”
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
I seem to remember someone thinking it was going to be a great idea to buy a design of a couple of foreign ships which we could mass produce and our presence problems would be solved. They would also be high tech and easy to maintain.

Spoiler Alert- it didn’t work.
 

Llarry

Well-Known Member
Excellent points from Flash and Uncle Fester about the added cost of a small procurement of Diesel/AIP boats. Potentially you end up with much less capability than an SSN at something approaching the cost of an SSN when the extra costs are folded in. Consider me suitably chastised. <grin>
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Excellent points from Flash and Uncle Fester about the added cost of a small procurement of Diesel/AIP boats. Potentially you end up with much less capability than an SSN at something approaching the cost of an SSN when the extra costs are folded in. Consider me suitably chastised. <grin>
Nah, not meant as chastisement. But it does illustrate the value of doing tours in places like OPNAV or the SYSCOMs - watch the sausage get made and learn why "good ideas" like these are basically fantasies. Or as I once saw posted in a Pentagon cubicle: "Vision without funding is a hallucination."
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I seem to remember someone thinking it was going to be a great idea to buy a design of a couple of foreign ships which we could mass produce and our presence problems would be solved. They would also be high tech and easy to maintain.

Spoiler Alert- it didn’t work.

The new Constellation-class FFG's are based on a Franco-Italian design.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
LCS' sins are manifest but they weren't due to being "foreign" designs. More to do with Rumsfeld's mantra that you can wipe your ass with established design and build processes as long as you yell "Transformation!" enough times while you do it.

The Freedom-class combining gear, for example, which is the class' biggest headache and the main reason why they're being decommed early, is a genuine certified LockMart product, made in the USA.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
More old boats: Lake Champlain and Essex at NAS Quonset Point, 1963.

I'm curious...were any carriers ever homeported at Q-Point, or was it a transit stop only?
View attachment 38963
Excellent photo find! I’ll see what I can find out, but my intuition is that carriers weren’t homeported there as the base lacked the facilities…but that is a guess.

EDIT: Boy, was I ever wrong! Directly from Wikipedia…

“Boasting a deepwater port, NAS Quonset Point was also homeport to several Essex class aircraft carriers, including the USS Essex (CV-9), USS Intrepid (CV-11), USS Wasp (CV-18), , USS Leyte (CV-32), USS Antietam (CV-36), USS Lake Champlain (CV-39), and USS Tarawa (CV-40), as well as their respective carrier air groups (CAGs or CVSGs). In September 1945, Air Wing Eighteen became Air Wing Seven here.”
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
To make up for the threadjack: here’s Langley moored at Pensacola in April 1923, only a year after conversion was completed. View attachment 38948
Thanks for getting it back on track - the threadjack would be better suited for the Road to 350 thread - I was curious to your opinion on the procurement of diesel subs if you reconsider it from a short term security perspective (ie, how high are the odds of a conflict this decade) and not from a long term financial position.

Back on topic: a never built contemporary of the light cruiser Worcester and heavy cruiser Des Moines was the CL-154 anti-aircraft cruiser. It featured both the new 5”/54 dual purpose gun (about 40% more range than the 5”/38) as well as the new 3”/50 in place of the quad Bofors 40mm. Norman Friedman’s book on US Cruisers covers it well.


1696942812877.png
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Another never built design was the ultimate battlecruiser HMS Incomparable. Proposed in 1915 (just before Jutland), it was the idea of Admiral Jackie Fisher. The dimensions were staggering: a slender 1,000 ft long with a narrow beam of only 104 ft suggested a top speed of 35 knots on 180,000 HP. Armament was to be six (3x2) 20” main guns.

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