Shooting debrief discussion

[Swanee]

Thanks everyone for keeping it to a good discussion and not a dogpile. I do appreciate it! Next round is on me.


So how do we change our litigious society that wants to legally blame someone when anything goes wrong?

Also- why are we so eager to project what someone may do and hold it against them? Is there a bias there?

And should history matter? This one is tough for me- I don't think that people should be treated differently today for things that they've already been held accountable for and served their sentence for. That's the whole, "equal protection under the law" and due process thing. But I also know that history can be a huge indicator of what may happen.

This also goes into things like, should an excon or felon have to admit that they are one on a job application or interview? I suppose it depends on the crime.

I also think that half of punishment is as a deterrent. I'm not sure that works as well as some may think it does- but I don't have any data to back that up.

 

[Swanee]

Reading the reporting today, there appear to be more damning allegations being made against the officers. Hence the charges.

If what the DA says is true- I suppose some of my questions have been answered about training and SOPs.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Even if it is overblown, all it takes is one time to wipe out any incremental savings that accumulated over the previous months/years. In the image below, you're living on the top line. Probaby not where you want to be.
View attachment 26456

Glad that you brought this up. “Living in the top line” isn’t of itself a bad thing. I believe my approach slides the probability to the right.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Reading the reporting today, there appear to be more damning allegations being made against the officers. Hence the charges.

The interesting thing is that I watched the full video's and didn't see what they described, maybe I wasn't paying enough attention, or maybe it happened but not to the degree the DA has said? I wish I could find the full body cam videos again however it appears they may have been taken down as all I can find are edited ones that start when they get him out of the car and end when shots were fired.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Aurora police release dash camera footage of controversial traffic stop

Aurora Police have released a 20-minute dashboard camera video of a controversial arrest made Saturday of a black couple, saying it provides necessary context unlike a nearly 3-minute video that was taken by a bystander and posted on social media. The videos, department news release and its...

www.dailyherald.com

What are our thoughts on this? It’s a 20 minute video

 

[Swanee]

I’m not trying to be a dick. I appreciate you actually responded, unlike most who read that post who will skip the uncomfortable subject entirely. Now is the time to talk about what’s actually happening.

I went to Texas A&M. The current controversy is agitators calling for the removal of the statue of Lawrence Sullivan Ross (they already vandalized it). He was a famous Texas Ranger (he led an expedition that freed slaves from Comanches), he was a Confederate brigadier general (one of the youngest at only 26 when the war ended), he was a farmer, rancher, sheriff, state senator, governor of Texas, and president of the Texas AMC, which is now A&M. He was an advocate for blacks in many ways that were very unpopular at the time and without him A&M and Prairie View A&M likely wouldn’t exist. But he has to go because he fought for his state like virtually everyone else did. His statue conspicuously in civilian dress is a symbol of systemic racism.

Meanwhile, in 2012 a student of a certain race was beaten to death by a mob of a different race at a McDonalds on University Avenue across the street from campus, purely because he had the wrong skin tone. No one was brought to justice, it received virtually no media attention, and there were no protests, riots, or looting. You can guess the race of the victim and the mob, but it doesn’t match the narrative of systemic racism. I imagine it would have been quite a story if the skin tones were reversed between the student and the attacking mob.

I do agree.

That statue is a tough one. Is serving as a Confederate enough to erase every good deed someone may have done in their life? I don't know. Maybe. In today's climate there isn't a lot of forgiveness for certain "sins" no matter how much you may atone for them. (It reminds me of the joke- ...but you f*ck one goat....) We see it in the military with the zero defect mentality. Are they going to demand to rename Houston in Texas? Sam Houston is a Texan legend.


I do believe that the policies that will help end racial violence one way will also help the racial violence occuring the other way. Hopefully it opens up some lines of communication, so that this shit stops both ways.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I do agree.

That statue is a tough one. Is serving as a Confederate enough to erase every good deed someone may have done in their life? I don't know. Maybe. In today's climate there isn't a lot of forgiveness for certain "sins" no matter how much you may atone for them. (It reminds me of the joke- ...but you f*ck one goat....) We see it in the military with the zero defect mentality. Are they going to demand to rename Houston in Texas? Sam Houston is a Texan legend.


I do believe that the policies that will help end racial violence one way will also help the racial violence occuring the other way. Hopefully it opens up some lines of communication, so that this shit stops both ways.

People are going after Houston as we speak. He owned slaves after all. Never mind that he opposed secession and resigned from his office of governor in protest. No room for nuance.

 

[wink]

Looks like the DA went for felony murder and aggravated assault charges.

You get a charge Felony Murder when someone dies in the commission of a felony taking place. You dont have to pull the trigger. Could be the getaway driver for a bank robbery where the bank guard shoots your own accomplice. To get that you need an underlying felony charge. Bank robbery in my example.

My understanding is that this underlying charge was the aggravated assault, which was because one of his shots went wide and hit a bystander's Chevy Tahoe. Seems like a bit of a stretch. But ig the word murder wasn't used there would be hell to pay.

 

[Swanee]

Aurora police release dash camera footage of controversial traffic stop

Aurora Police have released a 20-minute dashboard camera video of a controversial arrest made Saturday of a black couple, saying it provides necessary context unlike a nearly 3-minute video that was taken by a bystander and posted on social media. The videos, department news release and its...

www.dailyherald.com

What are our thoughts on this? It’s a 20 minute video

My only question is why did he open the door? Maybe to talk to her? I'm thinking maybe help her? This was a DV situation after all...

But all in all I think it was professional, they kept their calm, and throughout the entire incident it looked like they worked as a team, like they knew what they were doing. No chokeholds, no excessive force, just business ( I think I even heard one of them say, "watch their head" as they were pulling them out of the car). And once they were cuffed, it was hands off. No threat.

And the couple in the car... I think they're trying to capitalize on the current political climate. Which means the cops have to do it better and cleaner than ever.

 

[Swanee]

People are going after Houston as we speak. He owned slaves after all. Never mind that he opposed secession and resigned from his office of governor in protest. No room for nuance.

Ugh. Well. I found the line for me. Sam Houston is the founding father of Texas. He's on par with our founding fathers (who also owned slaves).

 

[Treetop Flyer]

My only question is why did he open the door? Maybe to talk to her? I'm thinking maybe help her? This was a DV situation after all...

But all in all I think it was professional, they kept their calm, and throughout the entire incident it looked like they worked as a team, like they knew what they were doing. No chokeholds, no excessive force, just business ( I think I even heard one of them say, "watch their head" as they were pulling them out of the car). And once they were cuffed, it was hands off. No threat.

And the couple in the car... I think they're trying to capitalize on the current political climate. Which means the cops have to do it better and cleaner than ever.

I agree with all there. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to be a police officer these days.

 

[JTS11]

I agree with all there. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to be a police officer these days.

I've thought the same for a while.

Be a firefighter. Everyone loves firefighters...and you'll probably never be brought up on politically motivated felony murder charges!

I'm guessing there will be a slow exodus of officers from big city departments.

For any LEOs on here, how does LE retirement work. Does your time in service transfer if you switch departments? Does it have to be intrastate?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

My only question is why did he open the door? Maybe to talk to her? I'm thinking maybe help her? This was a DV situation after all...

But all in all I think it was professional, they kept their calm, and throughout the entire incident it looked like they worked as a team, like they knew what they were doing. No chokeholds, no excessive force, just business ( I think I even heard one of them say, "watch their head" as they were pulling them out of the car). And once they were cuffed, it was hands off. No threat.

And the couple in the car... I think they're trying to capitalize on the current political climate. Which means the cops have to do it better and cleaner than ever.

Anyone else notice that sweet 1967 Mustang Convertible right when the video starts?

 

[wink]

Ugh. Well. I found the line for me. Sam Houston is the founding father of Texas. He's on par with our founding fathers (who also owned slaves).

Feet of clay.

 

[Spekkio]

DUI is an arrestable offense due to a(n) historical history. While the way that's treated could be changed, currently, cops have to deal with what's written. But sending someone on their way opens the cops and the municipality up to legal action if it doesn't work out. Right or wrong, it's the world we live in.

DUI isn't the only crime like this.

When I took a CJ class, it cited a study where people were polled on what they thought was fair punishment for a crime. It was often significantly less than the statutory minimum sentence. Legislatures often enact strict minimum sentence laws based on public pressure from outlying cases where a violent criminal gets a slap on the wrist.

Anecdote on this: My buddy got into a bar fight in college. Other guy instigated (multiple witnesses). Broke the guys jaw with an (un) lucky shot. Felony assault, 3 years probation with opportunity to expunge was the plea deal. Defense attorney told him take the deal bc the court case would almost certainly result in conviction and a year or two in prison.

No broken jaw would have been misdemeanor assault - 6-12 months in jail (although probably a much friendlier plea deal).